(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vlürch »

I figured I'd post to say that on Reddit, I was told it really is just "[number]番のロッカー" but the user also explained that there's a nuance difference from "[number]番目のロッカー", that the the former may be more likely to actually have a number on it while the latter may be more likely to refer to a locker you'd have to count is the [number]th... which does make sense, like the English difference between "locker number [number]" and "[number]th locker", but I'd have never figured out that there's such a nuance difference between and 番目 on my own. [O.O]

Well, I'd never figure anything out on my own, but that even less than anything else.
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Post by Khemehekis »

Khemehekis wrote: 15 Mar 2020 00:40
eldin raigmore wrote: 14 Mar 2020 23:22 “Beta-buxxer” is new to me!
A couple of years ago, I answered this question on Quora:

https://www.quora.com/What-comes-to-min ... -name-Chad

Then a month ago, I got this A2A in my Quora digest in my email box:

https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-mean ... you-a-Chad

I learned what a beta-buxxer was from there.
What’s its etymology, if you know?
I would guess the "beta" part comes because they're beta males, with Chads being the alpha males. And I would guess the "buxxer" part comes from "bucks", since the main thing beta-buxxers offer to women is that they are providers, not that they are hot or provide great sex.

"Bucks" has a CKS, and "buxxer" may look less odd than "buckser" to some people.
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Post by Pabappa »

"bux" is a word. there's no https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bux but Im pretty sure we'd all know what it means. its used in slang for real and unofficial types of currency, e.g. Robux, neetbux, etc. and the doubling of the X is just following established spelling traditions for newly coined words.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals »

I've been thinking about how I speak lately and now I've got some questions for my fellow German speakers here.

I. Would you call the construction "ich bin tanzen" a progressive? If so, is there a difference for you between "ich bin am Tanzen" and "ich bin tanzen"? I feel the first is a general progressive while the latter implies that the action is happening at a different place. "ich war am lesen" = "I was reading" versus "ich war lesen" = "I was reading (but somewhere else)".

II. I accidently double the past participle like in "ich hab getanzt gehabt" pretty often and I was wondering if it's possible that it might not be that much of an accident after all and instead is developing its own grammatical function. Sometimes the construction has a perfect tense vibe for me ("ich hab's dir doch gesagt!" versus "ich hab's dir doch gesagt gehabt") and it would technically fill the hole that's been formed by the former perfect turning into the general past tense. I could be interpreting too much into it though.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

ixals wrote: 09 Feb 2021 18:24 I've been thinking about how I speak lately and now I've got some questions for my fellow German speakers here.

I. Would you call the construction "ich bin tanzen" a progressive? If so, is there a difference for you between "ich bin am Tanzen" and "ich bin tanzen"? I feel the first is a general progressive while the latter implies that the action is happening at a different place. "ich war am lesen" = "I was reading" versus "ich war lesen" = "I was reading (but somewhere else)".

II. I accidently double the past participle like in "ich hab getanzt gehabt" pretty often and I was wondering if it's possible that it might not be that much of an accident after all and instead is developing its own grammatical function. Sometimes the construction has a perfect tense vibe for me ("ich hab's dir doch gesagt!" versus "ich hab's dir doch gesagt gehabt") and it would technically fill the hole that's been formed by the former perfect turning into the general past tense. I could be interpreting too much into it though.
I have pondered about both questions for some time. "Ich bin am tanzen" IMO is a restricted progressive aspect (transitive verbs can only take bare noun objects for me). "Ich bin tanzen" to me has a bit of a prospective nuance, as the change of place usually implies some passing of time. Wikipedia calls this Absentiv.
Doppeltes Perfekt is pretty common, I think. Especially in varieties that have lost most of the Präteritum. I often hear it instead of Plusquamperfect. Seems to be almost standard in colloquial registers.
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Post by cedh »

Creyeditor wrote: 09 Feb 2021 20:18
ixals wrote: 09 Feb 2021 18:24 I've been thinking about how I speak lately and now I've got some questions for my fellow German speakers here.

I. Would you call the construction "ich bin tanzen" a progressive? If so, is there a difference for you between "ich bin am Tanzen" and "ich bin tanzen"? I feel the first is a general progressive while the latter implies that the action is happening at a different place. "ich war am lesen" = "I was reading" versus "ich war lesen" = "I was reading (but somewhere else)".

II. I accidently double the past participle like in "ich hab getanzt gehabt" pretty often and I was wondering if it's possible that it might not be that much of an accident after all and instead is developing its own grammatical function. Sometimes the construction has a perfect tense vibe for me ("ich hab's dir doch gesagt!" versus "ich hab's dir doch gesagt gehabt") and it would technically fill the hole that's been formed by the former perfect turning into the general past tense. I could be interpreting too much into it though.
I have pondered about both questions for some time. "Ich bin am tanzen" IMO is a restricted progressive aspect (transitive verbs can only take bare noun objects for me). "Ich bin tanzen" to me has a bit of a prospective nuance, as the change of place usually implies some passing of time. Wikipedia calls this Absentiv.
Doppeltes Perfekt is pretty common, I think. Especially in varieties that have lost most of the Präteritum. I often hear it instead of Plusquamperfect. Seems to be almost standard in colloquial registers.
For me, the progressive "am"-construction is fully productive. With transitive verbs, I feel like I can use all kinds of noun phrases there. At least before the "am". A few hours ago I was talking to a friend on the phone and told him: "Ich bin gerade [das tolle Kürbiscurry [aus dem neuen Kochbuch]] am Kochen" - the object of the verb here is a definite NP with an adjective and a PP of its own.
The position after the "am" feels more restricted though, with bare generic nouns sounding best: "Ich bin gerade am Curry kochen." A bit like (pseudo?) noun incorporation. There's little semantic difference to "Ich bin gerade Curry am kochen" though, if any. Maybe the latter has a bit more focus on the curry?

The construction without "am", to me, implies that the action takes place at a location other than the subject's and/or listener's current or usual location. The term "absentive" captures this quite well. However, there's also a volitional element: "Ich bin tanzen" implies that I have gone to the disco on purpose, and not just that I am at the disco but the listener is not. And there's a durative element too: I probably won't be back soon. The prospective nuance, however, is not really prominent for me. It's associated mainly with the extended variant "Ich bin dann mal tanzen", which does in fact mean "I'm going to go dancing right now".

I use a doubled perfect frequently too. So much that a good friend of mine regularly calls me out on that "because it makes no sense". (For geographical reference, I grew up near Cologne, and she's from Munich, but both of us didn't have particularly strong contact with speakers of the local dialects.) To me, this construction is mainly a perfect in the past tense, i.e. it indicates that an earlier action still had relevant consequences at a past point in time (and this state may or may not continue into the present): "Ich hab's dir doch gesagt gehabt" - "I told you before (but you still didn't take it into account when you should have done so)". This is in contrast to the classic plusquamperfekt, which I use mainly as a non-perfect anterior past: "Ich hatte es dir doch gesagt" - "I had told you (maybe you forgot, but it doesn't seem to have mattered anyway)". And sometimes I even use a double plusquamperfekt, which combines both notions: "Ich hatte es dir doch gesagt gehabt" - "I had already told you even earlier (and you really really should have listened to me)."
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Post by Creyeditor »

For me, the progressive "am"-construction is fully productive. With transitive verbs, I feel like I can use all kinds of noun phrases there. At least before the "am". A few hours ago I was talking to a friend on the phone and told him: "Ich bin gerade [das tolle Kürbiscurry [aus dem neuen Kochbuch]] am Kochen" - the object of the verb here is a definite NP with an adjective and a PP of its own.
This sentence is ungrammatical for me, but I've heard such sentences before, mainly used by people that come from the very west, IIRC.
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Post by ixals »

Creyeditor wrote: 10 Feb 2021 00:12
For me, the progressive "am"-construction is fully productive. With transitive verbs, I feel like I can use all kinds of noun phrases there. At least before the "am". A few hours ago I was talking to a friend on the phone and told him: "Ich bin gerade [das tolle Kürbiscurry [aus dem neuen Kochbuch]] am Kochen" - the object of the verb here is a definite NP with an adjective and a PP of its own.
This sentence is ungrammatical for me, but I've heard such sentences before, mainly used by people that come from the very west, IIRC.
cedh wrote: 09 Feb 2021 22:37 The position after the "am" feels more restricted though, with bare generic nouns sounding best: "Ich bin gerade am Curry kochen." A bit like (pseudo?) noun incorporation. There's little semantic difference to "Ich bin gerade Curry am kochen" though, if any. Maybe the latter has a bit more focus on the curry?
The am-structure with a longer, more complicated object sounds bad to my ears, but it sounds familiar and is on the edge of feeling grammatical to me. I wouldn't use the am-structure personally for that but rather resort to a simple "ich bin grad ...". However, just "Curry" as an object would definitely be put after the "am" in my speech. Once there is something added to the object, it has to move before the "am".

Ich bin am Curry kochen. [tick]
Ich bin Curry am kochen. ( ~ [tick] )
Ich bin am das Curry kochen. [cross]
Ich bin am gutes Curry kochen. [cross]

This correlates with the noun incorporation you mentioned, cedh. "Ich bin am Curry kochen" and "Ich bin am Kühe melken" both work because "das Currykochen" and "das Kühemelken" also work just fine.

I also like how I always automatically don't capitalise the verbal noun in the "am"-construction (and you two seem to do it, too), even though it's a noun.
Creyeditor wrote: 09 Feb 2021 20:18 Wikipedia calls this Absentiv.
I always underestimate Wikipedia when it comes to having articles about these topics. But absentive is a good fit.
cedh wrote: 09 Feb 2021 22:37 The prospective nuance, however, is not really prominent for me. It's associated mainly with the extended variant "Ich bin dann mal tanzen", which does in fact mean "I'm going to go dancing right now".
Oh, I didn't think of "ich bin dann mal tanzen". I only considered the absentive meaning which I assume is derived from "ich bin tanzen gegangen" (?).
cedh wrote: 09 Feb 2021 22:37 I use a doubled perfect frequently too. So much that a good friend of mine regularly calls me out on that "because it makes no sense".
Yeah, the doubled perfect is one of the things some people feel very critical of, like with what case to use after "wegen". It's a change I wouldn't even consider putting in a conlang because it feels so illogical, just doubling the participle. [:P] Might not help that it's only able to be used at the end of sentence. "Gesagt gehabt hab ich das" is ungrammatical while the "am"-construction can, as in "Am tanzen war ich", and even "Tanzen war ich".
cedh wrote: 09 Feb 2021 22:37 And sometimes I even use a double plusquamperfekt, which combines both notions: "Ich hatte es dir doch gesagt gehabt" - "I had already told you even earlier (and you really really should have listened to me)."
That is very interesting to me. I have completely abandoned the original pluperfect to the point that "Ich war gelaufen" feels ungrammatical.
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Creyeditor wrote: 09 Feb 2021 20:18 "Ich bin tanzen" to me has a bit of a prospective nuance, as the change of place usually implies some passing of time. Wikipedia calls this Absentiv.
How common is this form in spoken German? I've studied German for years and have never heard anything about this! I would've just assumed it was an informal version of am + infinitive.
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I would say it's very common, especially in everyday situations. Often it occurs with "dann mal" as Cedh mentions. When I am about to take a shower or brush my teeth, I say " Ich bin (dann mal) [duschen/Zähne putzen]" and "Ich geh [duschen/Zähne putzen]" with about the same frequency, and I almost never say "Ich [dusche/putze Zähne]" or "Ich werde [duschen/Zähne putzen]" in such a situation.
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Post by cedh »

ixals wrote: 10 Feb 2021 01:57
cedh wrote: 09 Feb 2021 22:37 I use a doubled perfect frequently too. So much that a good friend of mine regularly calls me out on that "because it makes no sense".
Yeah, the doubled perfect is one of the things some people feel very critical of, like with what case to use after "wegen". It's a change I wouldn't even consider putting in a conlang because it feels so illogical, just doubling the participle. [:P] Might not help that it's only able to be used at the end of sentence. "Gesagt gehabt hab ich das" is ungrammatical while the "am"-construction can, as in "Am tanzen war ich", and even "Tanzen war ich".
"Gesagt gehabt hab ich das" is not ungrammatical to me, actually (although I wouldn't use it especially frequently either).
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I agree with Ixals on this one.
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I recently heard two European looking men speaking a language and was very surprised that I couldn't even guess which one it was. The intonation sounded quite similar to French but at times I thought it could be German. I couldn't understand a word they were saying which is what made it particularly strange because I can usually pick out a few words if it's a French or German regional language. Inoticed the phoneme /y/ at one point and they said something like /nɔ~no/ several times but I'm not sure if it actually means no. Are there any guesses as to what this language could be? I'm going to have to assume it's a regional language of some sort.
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where do you live? could it be Basque? some Basque speakers in France have [y]. That would be a total shot in the dark, though, so I doubt that's what it is.
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All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Feb 2021 00:08 I recently heard two European looking men speaking a language and was very surprised that I couldn't even guess which one it was. The intonation sounded quite similar to French but at times I thought it could be German. I couldn't understand a word they were saying which is what made it particularly strange because I can usually pick out a few words if it's a French or German regional language. Inoticed the phoneme /y/ at one point and they said something like /nɔ~no/ several times but I'm not sure if it actually means no. Are there any guesses as to what this language could be? I'm going to have to assume it's a regional language of some sort.
When I hear an unknown language that sounds like a bunch of other languages, it usually ends up being Portuguese [xP] Unfortunately, "French-sounding language with /y/" doesn't narrow things down too much. Maybe Breton? It's Celtic, which would explain your inability to understand it while looking for French- or German-like words.
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Pabappa wrote: 14 Feb 2021 00:50 where do you live? could it be Basque? some Basque speakers in France have [y]. That would be a total shot in the dark, though, so I doubt that's what it is.
Dormouse559 wrote: 14 Feb 2021 01:14 When I hear an unknown language that sounds like a bunch of other languages, it usually ends up being Portuguese [xP] Unfortunately, "French-sounding language with /y/" doesn't narrow things down too much. Maybe Breton? It's Celtic, which would explain your inability to understand it while looking for French- or German-like words.
So far Breton sounds far closer than anything else I've looked for. I live in the United States so it's not exactly common to hear a language like this. [:D]
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Dormouse559 wrote: 14 Feb 2021 01:14
All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Feb 2021 00:08 I recently heard two European looking men speaking a language and was very surprised that I couldn't even guess which one it was. The intonation sounded quite similar to French but at times I thought it could be German. I couldn't understand a word they were saying which is what made it particularly strange because I can usually pick out a few words if it's a French or German regional language. Inoticed the phoneme /y/ at one point and they said something like /nɔ~no/ several times but I'm not sure if it actually means no. Are there any guesses as to what this language could be? I'm going to have to assume it's a regional language of some sort.
When I hear an unknown language that sounds like a bunch of other languages, it usually ends up being Portuguese [xP]
That's usually the safest bet, yeah. [:D] But it should have a noticeable hint of Spanish, some Russian, only perhaps a little bit of German, and no /y/, so the description in this case doesn't really match. My next guess would be Dutch, but someone who "can usually pick out a few words if it's a French or German regional language" should probably be able to recognize it as well, so... Danish? That would explain not understanding a word they were saying, at least.
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Post by ixals »

Portuguese really is the worst when it comes to that. Two times I was wondering what it was and then minutes later there was always the headnod with an obvious "sim" [xD]

But another question about German (I'm sorry [:P] ). Voiceless stops turn into glottal stops before syllabic nasals for me (/pn̩ tn̩ kn̩/ [ʔm̩ ʔn̩ ʔŋ̩]), but voiced stops plus syllabic nasals also undergo a change that results in something different to the voiceless stop + syllabic nasal cluster. Does anyone have the same happening in their speech and maybe an idea on what the difference is? [:$]
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I guess for most speakers it's a nasally released voiced plosive /bn dn gn/. This is a bit different from a simple cluster, because the plosive does not have the usual oral release. This also means that there are less place cues for the plosive, which occur at the transition to neighbouring segments.
For me, these clusters are actually often simplified to a simple nasal (sometimes lengthening the preceding vowel) e.g. <haben> [ha:m], <Laden> [la:n].
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Post by Salmoneus »

Xonen wrote: 14 Feb 2021 12:32
Dormouse559 wrote: 14 Feb 2021 01:14
All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Feb 2021 00:08 I recently heard two European looking men speaking a language and was very surprised that I couldn't even guess which one it was. The intonation sounded quite similar to French but at times I thought it could be German. I couldn't understand a word they were saying which is what made it particularly strange because I can usually pick out a few words if it's a French or German regional language. Inoticed the phoneme /y/ at one point and they said something like /nɔ~no/ several times but I'm not sure if it actually means no. Are there any guesses as to what this language could be? I'm going to have to assume it's a regional language of some sort.
When I hear an unknown language that sounds like a bunch of other languages, it usually ends up being Portuguese [xP]
That's usually the safest bet, yeah. [:D] But it should have a noticeable hint of Spanish, some Russian, only perhaps a little bit of German, and no /y/, so the description in this case doesn't really match. My next guess would be Dutch, but someone who "can usually pick out a few words if it's a French or German regional language" should probably be able to recognize it as well, so... Danish? That would explain not understanding a word they were saying, at least.
But Brazilian Portuguese is easy to spot - you just have to ask yourself, "is this Russian"? If you think that it's Russian, it's Brazilian Portuguese.

[it's weird how alien Portuguese sounds, given that on paper it actually looks like a standard, even sometimes conservative Romlang. And yet somehow when they speak it, you can't grab hold of it]

On the 'sounds like French' but, a big thing in that respect is the nasal vowels. But yeah, no /y/.

Danish is another good guess - front vowels and a uvular. Or maybe Polish - nasal vowels?
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