How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

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How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by ThatAnalysisGuy »

Hello. I recently made my own wordlist, and I included the terms "bee" and "wasp." One group of languages that I am interested in studying are the Algic languages (Algonquian and Yurok). However, I only found the term for "bee" in these languages.

Can you name distinct Algonquian and Yurok terms for "bee" and "wasp"? Thank you for reading.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by eldin raigmore »

Native American languages don’t have native terms for honeybees, because those came here from across the Atlantic.
Some must have terms for other kinds of bees, or more generic terms for bees.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by ThatAnalysisGuy »

eldin raigmore wrote: 09 Aug 2021 17:13 Native American languages don’t have native terms for honeybees, because those came here from across the Atlantic.
Some must have terms for other kinds of bees, or more generic terms for bees.
What about wasps?
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by eldin raigmore »

ThatAnalysisGuy wrote: 09 Aug 2021 17:49
eldin raigmore wrote: 09 Aug 2021 17:13 Native American languages don’t have native terms for honeybees, because those came here from across the Atlantic.
Some must have terms for other kinds of bees, or more generic terms for bees.
What about wasps?
I would be speculating.
I’m thinking if you don’t know about honey you might not care about the difference between bees and wasps.
There’re many American languages, though, so some languages might have one setup while another has another.
….
As for Algic languages, I wouldn’t even be speculating; I’d just be guessing.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

I'm not sure non-scientists have any way to distinguish bees from wasps. Indeed, bees in a sense ARE wasps - a wasp is any wasp that isn't a bee or an ant or a sawfly. Apparently you can identify wasps by their branched hairs, the bifurcation of the seventh dorsal abdominal plate in females, and by certain patterns in the venation of their hind wings; but I'm not sure most Algic tribespeople would have paid much attention to the seventh dorsal abdominal plate of female specimens.

I think the main reason to distinguish is that bees collect pollen, and most wasps don't. However, in North America they actually have pollen wasps as well, which kind of makes that distinction pointless. [the rest of the world also has fig wasps, of course, but that's so weird that it must have been easy to distinguish from normal bee pollination]. Similarly, wasps are mostly aggressive and bees aren't... but that breaks down when you also have non-aggressive wasps around.

And again, in European languages there's often a three-way division (four if you count ants): bees, wasps, and hornets. Hornets are recognisable because they're really, really big - but that's less striking if you have lots and lots of wasps of all shapes and sizes.

Even in English, the distinction is breaking down somewhat in North America, where apparently they instead call conventional wasps (vespula and dolichovespula) "yellowjackets" or "meat bees", presumably because they're so infested with innumerable wasp species that just calling them wasps isn't specific enough.


So.... while I wouldn't be suprised if a north american language had more than one word for non-ant, non-sawfly hymenopterans, it might very well not exactly mimic the tripartite European distinction of bee/wasp/hornet.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by elemtilas »

Salmoneus wrote: 09 Aug 2021 23:46 I'm not sure non-scientists have any way to distinguish bees from wasps.
Spoiler:
Indeed, bees in a sense ARE wasps - a wasp is any wasp that isn't a bee or an ant or a sawfly. Apparently you can identify wasps by their branched hairs, the bifurcation of the seventh dorsal abdominal plate in females, and by certain patterns in the venation of their hind wings; but I'm not sure most Algic tribespeople would have paid much attention to the seventh dorsal abdominal plate of female specimens.

I think the main reason to distinguish is that bees collect pollen, and most wasps don't. However, in North America they actually have pollen wasps as well, which kind of makes that distinction pointless. [the rest of the world also has fig wasps, of course, but that's so weird that it must have been easy to distinguish from normal bee pollination]. Similarly, wasps are mostly aggressive and bees aren't... but that breaks down when you also have non-aggressive wasps around.

And again, in European languages there's often a three-way division (four if you count ants): bees, wasps, and hornets. Hornets are recognisable because they're really, really big - but that's less striking if you have lots and lots of wasps of all shapes and sizes.

Even in English, the distinction is breaking down somewhat in North America, where apparently they instead call conventional wasps (vespula and dolichovespula) "yellowjackets" or "meat bees", presumably because they're so infested with innumerable wasp species that just calling them wasps isn't specific enough.


So.... while I wouldn't be suprised if a north american language had more than one word for non-ant, non-sawfly hymenopterans, it might very well not exactly mimic the tripartite European distinction of bee/wasp/hornet.
This I don't understand. Why can't non-scientists distinguish bees from wasps? Or do you mean something else? It's really not that hard. I'd grant that distinguishing one species of wasp from another may require specialist knowledge. I read a neighbourhood discussion literally this morning where non-scientists not only narrowed down the issue to hornet vs wasp vs bee, but specifically to bald faced hornet.

I think anyone who observes Nature more than casually ought to be able to tell a bee from a wasp from a hornet. Assuming one lives in an area where all three live as well.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Pabappa »

Can we go by nests? I actually dont know much about this myself, but bees' nests are pretty distinctive, right? And I'd think that that would be an inherited trait, so it would line up with the scientific division between the two, except that I'm sure, like so often in nature, some species within the innovative group (bees, i guess) lost the trait and reverted back to being wasplike, or to not building nests at all. Those would be considered wasps in popular culture and bees in scientific culture but still the core definitions of the two groups would be the same.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

elemtilas wrote: 10 Aug 2021 15:01
Salmoneus wrote: 09 Aug 2021 23:46 I'm not sure non-scientists have any way to distinguish bees from wasps.
This I don't understand. Why can't non-scientists distinguish bees from wasps? Or do you mean something else? It's really not that hard.
...I already explained this. In orde to distinguish a wasp from a bee, you need to closely examine the seventh dorsal abdominal plate of a female specimen, to see whether it's bifurcated. Or extract and examine a hair, to see if it's branched. Or match the precise pattern of hind-wing venation to a certain paradigm. Or apparently you can also simple observe some small details of joint anatomy in the limbs.

And whichever of those options you choose, you first have to KNOW that that's the difference between them!

Most non-scientists neither know that these are the only differences, nor have the microscope to hand to examine specimens appropriately.

There aren't any other properties - physical or behavioural - that apply to bees but not to wasps, or vice versa.

You can of course distinguish between certain species. But whether a species as a whole is a wasp or a bee isn't something you can know without scientific assistance. This is also why many species may have both 'wasp' and 'bee', or 'wasp' and 'hornet', or 'hornet' and 'bee' in different common names for the same animal.

In Europe, of course, people can indeed generally distinguish between a European honeybee (apis millifera), a common hornet (vespa crabro), and a wasp (usually vespula vulgaris or vespula germanica, or else dolichovespula norwegica, saxonica, media or sylvestris). Which is why we have those words. But literally NONE of those species are native to North America and most are still not that widespread there. So that's not very helpful for Algic speakers!
I'd grant that distinguishing one species of wasp from another may require specialist knowledge. I read a neighbourhood discussion literally this morning where non-scientists not only narrowed down the issue to hornet vs wasp vs bee, but specifically to bald faced hornet.
Which kind of proves my point! Although the bull wasp, or bald-faced aerial yellowjacket, may be colloquially called a 'bald-faced hornet' by some Americans, on account of its size, it's actually just an ordinary wasp (or 'yellowjacket' for Americans), and isn't closely related to hornets. Most non-scientists, however, have no way to know that!

[I refer back to my comments on the inherited language breaking down in the US: Americans clearly don't know whether to name this animal after its size ('hornet', because it's a similar size to a European hornet) or its other characteristics ('wasp', because it's very closely related to and similar to European wasps), or to recognise it as neither (it's also called a 'blackjacket', because unlike European wasps, bees and hornets, it's mostly black with white marking, without the distinctive yellow/red/brown markings of those species). The fact that people have named it a wasp, a hornet, a blackjacket AND a yellowjacket, and that 'yellowjackets' themselves have been called 'meat bees' (by people instead reserving 'wasp' to mean the various weird and creepy desert creatures that Americans have), kind of demonstrates my point that people can't tell one from the other consistently!]
I think anyone who observes Nature more than casually ought to be able to tell a bee from a wasp from a hornet.
OK. So, how do you do that? What criteria would you use?
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

Pabappa wrote: 10 Aug 2021 16:59 Can we go by nests? I actually dont know much about this myself, but bees' nests are pretty distinctive, right? And I'd think that that would be an inherited trait, so it would line up with the scientific division between the two, except that I'm sure, like so often in nature, some species within the innovative group (bees, i guess) lost the trait and reverted back to being wasplike, or to not building nests at all. Those would be considered wasps in popular culture and bees in scientific culture but still the core definitions of the two groups would be the same.
No.

You can distinguish the nests of specifically honeybees by the fact they're made of wax. But most bees do not make honeycomb nests, and most bees do not make wax. Most bees in fact don't have nests, or have small 'nests' for a single female. Even large, honey-filled wax nests may not look much like you'd expect a bee nest to look - bumblebee nests are weird clumps of 'pots', rather than prismatic, and their wax is much less shiny. Wasp nests, on the other hand, while not being made of wax, can have all the other features of honeycomb: they're often sheets of prismatic hexagonal cells, and in some cases may be filled with honey. Moreover, while wasp nests are made of paper, the paper can in some cases contain, or be coated in, wax. In any case, most bee and/or wasp nests are subterranean or hidden inside trees or the like, so the ordinary non-scientist cannot easily examine them, even if they knew what the were looking for!
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Pabappa »

Okay, thanks. Sounds like we really could do just about anything here..... maybe in European languages there's a tendency to find a one-to-one correspondence in where to draw the line between one animal and another in immediately adjacent languages, so that the categories of bee and wasp are fairly clear-cut to us. But I can see several other places to draw the line:

1) bees are the ones that make honey, and wasps are everything else. there can of course be subterms for the different types of non-honeybees, but it's likely that a coverall term will also exist.

2) wasps are big and bees are small.

3) wasps hurt a lot and bees hurt a little.

4) bees hang around flowers and wasps do not. unless this is a synonym of #1.

5) a division based on nest structure, which wouldnt align well with our own bipartite division, and might require three basic terms, though one of these would probably be for honeybees, so this too might fit within #1.

6) wasps sting you and keep on living, but bees sting and then die.

The possibilities are endless. I honestly didnt know there was any such thing as a bee that didnt make honey, so in my conlangs I guess I created #1 without really understanding it. I might look over that now, though, and divide up the non-honeybee class at least in the languages spoken in areas where the people would be in regular contact with more than one species of non-honeybee wasplike animal.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Creyeditor »

6) is what I was taught as a child [:D]
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

Pabappa wrote: 10 Aug 2021 22:48 Okay, thanks. Sounds like we really could do just about anything here..... maybe in European languages there's a tendency to find a one-to-one correspondence in where to draw the line between one animal and another in immediately adjacent languages, so that the categories of bee and wasp are fairly clear-cut to us.
I don't know to what extent this is true across Europe, but it's probably reasonably true. In most of Europe, there is a clear fivefold distinction:

- striped, sort of fluffy-looking things that aren't that aggressive and help pollinate things but can sting you (bees)
- striped, less-fluffy-looking things that are more aggressive and totally useless and can sting you (except maybe in reducing pests) (wasps)
- striped, scary-looking things that you don't want to be stung by (hornets)
- striped things that can't actually sting you even they look like they can (hoverflies)
- things that can't sting you (flies)

Bees can be divided into those that produce a useful amount of honey (honeybees) and those that produce no honey, or not enough honey to be worth collecting (bumblebees, mason bees, leafcutter bees, wool carder bees, etc).

These categories mostly line up with the taxonomic groups in Europe, though they're not perfect (do we have any non-aculeate wasps? probably. And ruby-tail wasps are weird because they don't look like wasps but can still sting you; and 'wood wasps' are actually stripy sawflies). It also helps that most of our slightly weird things are small bees that you don't tend to notice much. But outside of Europe, they break down a lot more. North America has LOTS of wasps that can't sting you (whether or not they're stripy). And wasps that CAN sting you, but aren't stripy, or aren't yellow-and-black! And bees that do produce honey, and yet can't sting you! And it has wasps that help pollinate things, and wasps that produce honey, and wasps that look scary, and bees that arent' fluffy at all, and solitary bees that can be as big as wasps! And no honeybees!
But I can see several other places to draw the line:

1) bees are the ones that make honey, and wasps are everything else. there can of course be subterms for the different types of non-honeybees, but it's likely that a coverall term will also exist.

2) wasps are big and bees are small.
FWIW, in the UK, bees are bigger than wasps. This is because although honeybees are small, bumblebees can be much bigger than normal wasps (except maybe queens?). Hornets, though, are bigger than either.
3) wasps hurt a lot and bees hurt a little.
Presumably you're including all non-stinging things as bees?

4) bees hang around flowers and wasps do not. unless this is a synonym of #1.
It's not, and is a better approximation to the taxonomy. Most bees pollinate, and most wasps don't (or don't pollinate much, at least), though there are exceptions. Basically, bees are a group of wasps that evolved to pollinate better - but so are pollen wasps.

5) a division based on nest structure, which wouldnt align well with our own bipartite division, and might require three basic terms, though one of these would probably be for honeybees, so this too might fit within #1.
Maybe, although i'm not sure how good people-of-yore were at tracking small flying things to their nests...
The possibilities are endless.
Yep!
I honestly didnt know there was any such thing as a bee that didnt make honey, so in my conlangs I guess I created #1 without really understanding it. I might look over that now, though, and divide up the non-honeybee class at least in the languages spoken in areas where the people would be in regular contact with more than one species of non-honeybee wasplike animal.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

Creyeditor wrote: 10 Aug 2021 23:17 6) is what I was taught as a child [:D]
FWIW, many people believe this, but it doesn't match their use of the names. Only honeybees consistently die when they sting you - bumblebees (and other bees) don't.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Khemehekis »

I have a schizophrenic friend named Carl, with whom I lost touch in December 2013. Carl would always say: "Bees sting. Wasps bite. Hornets sting and bite." I never assumed this was accurate. Although I do recall my mother telling me that yellow jackets bit rather than stung.

At my junior high and high school, we had hundreds of yellow jackets that would congregate around the schools' garbage cans and wherever lonch was being eaten, and most students referred to the yellow jackets as "bees", even though they were really wasps.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by DesEsseintes »

Somewhat irrelevant but I was stung by a wasp for the first time in my life a few weeks ago and I was surprised at the feeling. It felt like my upper arm (where I was stung) was being burnt by someone holding a lit cigarette lighter against my skin for a good 90 seconds. This is indeed what I assumed was happening when I was stung but when I turned around the wasp was hovering in mid air behind me.

Just felt like sharing that.

More relatedly: Arapaho apparently refers to bees, wasps and all similar creatures as kóho’ok. Lovely word.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by elemtilas »

Salmoneus wrote: 10 Aug 2021 20:46
elemtilas wrote: 10 Aug 2021 15:01
Salmoneus wrote: 09 Aug 2021 23:46 I'm not sure non-scientists have any way to distinguish bees from wasps.
This I don't understand. Why can't non-scientists distinguish bees from wasps? Or do you mean something else? It's really not that hard.
...I already explained this.
If you had, I wouldn't have asked for clarification.

I think anyone who observes Nature more than casually ought to be able to tell a bee from a wasp from a hornet.
OK. So, how do you do that? What criteria would you use?
The same way a non-scientist distinguishes between a stag and a hart or a black vs grizzly or a bison vs buffalo.

You see the animal and someone who has the knowledge tells you what it is.

The quick and dirty criteria for generic bee vs generic wasp are body form & colouration. Bees are kind of wide, wasps are generally thin. Honey bees and bumble bees are fuzzy, wasps are hairless. The main bees you'll encounter are orangey or yellowy & black striped; wasps are often a very distinctive yellow and black though there are other colours. There are also some behavioural clues. Bees generally mind their own business while a wasp's business is to ruin your day.

Will this system help an entomologist distinguish two very similar creatures? No! It's not supposed to, either. Will it help a home gardener or a child distinguish two broad groups of bugs? Yes, it's sufficient to the task.

Image
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Vlürch »

But wait, what about appearance? I can easily tell apart wasps from bees based on how they look: wasps are yellow and black with dark hair, bees are orange and brown with light hair. Wasps look like sports cars or cheetahs, bees look like mopeds or house cats.

Some people do have trouble remembering what the right words for them are, but in my experience they're still able to tell them apart from one another and will use whatever qualifying terms to describe which one they're talking about if they're unsure of the right word. I've never heard of anyone not being able to tell them apart at all, except when I was a kid there were some kids who didn't but kids are stupid, and possibly one woman but she just hated them all with an extreme passion and refused to acknowledge that they're any different (and included bumblebees, which are obviously totally different).

Image
Image

Another thing, although this is meaningless to telling them apart, is that if one comes indoors and you try to help them out from the balcony by gently placing your finger near them as they're buzzing around the window, wasps are far more likely to grab onto it and let themselves be carried outside while bees might hop on it for a second but as soon as you start moving, they'll fly off before you can carry them outside (except once when a bee went through a spider's web and stayed on my hand while it rubbed the web off and chilled on it for a bit after that). Generally it seems like wasps are more "intelligent" than bees, like, they'll at least move around the window and plonk at different parts of it while a bee may be more likely to just plonk against the same part of the window over and over again. Again, of course this kind of stuff could never be a helpful distinguishing factor and could be specific to wasps and bees here and not everywhere, or whatever, dunno, just something I've noticed.

As for hornets, well, there aren't any where I live, but at our summer cottage we saw them occasionally and yeah, they're bigger... but not necessarily enough for that to be the main distinguishing factor, even if usually it'd be the most obvious thing at first. For me it's that they're yellow and brown with light hair, and have red-ish eyes.

Image

Their behaviour also is waaaaaayyyy more aggressive than wasps, like, I've only been stung by a wasp once or twice in my life (only as a kid when I didn't yet know how to handle them) in spite of regularly touching or occasionally even grabbing them to help them back outside (one comes inside our flat at least once a month in the summer, some summers up to half a dozen daily) and although I've never been stung by a hornet, once my dad swatted one that was trying to attack us (several times with all his might using the lid of a jar and it just didn't die) and another time I ran away from one; the other handful of times I saw them, thankfully they didn't actually start attacking.

It might be worth noting that in Finland the native wasp subspecies is known for its mild manners in contrast to wasps in every other European country IIRC, although another more aggressive subspecies of wasps migrating from the south is gradually replacing them due to climate change. Not sure which is more common exactly where I live, but I guess it's probably the less aggressive one? Well, in any case, I've heard from people and read somewhere that in the US wasps are considerably more aggressive than anywhere in Europe, though. Of course, most Finns still believe wasps in Finland are aggressive and the media sometimes scaremongers us about them...
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

elemtilas wrote: 11 Aug 2021 15:38 The same way a non-scientist distinguishes between a stag and a hart or a black vs grizzly or a bison vs buffalo.
But here you have the same problem but even more so. A non-scientist can't tell the difference between a stag and a hart, because there is no difference. 'Stag' and 'hart' are mostly synonyms for 'male deer' (except that colloquially a female red deer may also be a 'hart'). In traditional hunting parlance, 'hart' is reserved for particularly large stags - in theory, five years old or more - but since you can't actually tell the age of a stag by sight, it's really just an impressionistic term.

So no, languages don't have to have separate words for 'hart' and 'stag', just as they don't need separate words for 'bee' and 'wasp'. It's common to naively assume that every word in English means a specific and different thing, and that this distinction is well-grounded and objective, but it's often not the case, particularly when English is being used in an environment it didn't grow up in...

Similarly, you can't tell the difference between a bison and a buffalo, in an North American context, because they're just synonyms for the same species. ['buffalo' is an ambiguous term; it can also be used for other animals, outside north america].

You can tell the difference between a grizzly and a black bear, because these are different species, so hardly relevant to the wasp/bee/hornet issue.

You see the animal and someone who has the knowledge tells you what it is.
*rolls eyes*

Yes, if you're not a scientist you can learn the answer to scientific questions by asking a scientist. This would not, however, be a viable option for a pre-modern Algic-speaker.

The quick and dirty criteria for generic bee vs generic wasp are body form & colouration. Bees are kind of wide, wasps are generally thin. Honey bees and bumble bees are fuzzy, wasps are hairless. The main bees you'll encounter are orangey or yellowy & black striped; wasps are often a very distinctive yellow and black though there are other colours. There are also some behavioural clues. Bees generally mind their own business while a wasp's business is to ruin your day.
This is not an objective set of criteria that can be imposed on all languages; nor will it allow people to distinguish bees from wasps, if the insect in question is NOT a particularly prototypical example.

Colour is a bad guide, in particular, because wasps come in almost every colour. Bees are more limited, but you do get yellow and black striped ones.

Hairiness is a better guide, but difficult in practice - note how even in your picture the wasp looks hairier than the bee! And of course some bees are hairless, or seemingly so.

Aggression is also a bad guide, as many wasps are no more aggressive than bees (and some bees can be aggressive).


Now, you can of course GUESS whether something is a bee or a wasp. Depending where you live, these guesses will vary from 'relatively accurate' to 'complete inaccurate'. But guessing isn't the same as actually telling one thing from another.

[and again, honeybees are irrelevant, since they're not native to north america]


EDIT: it's kind of like saying: "of course you can tell the difference between an American and a South African by sight - Americans have pale skin and South Africans have dark skin!" Yes, you can guess on that principle, and you'll be right more than 50% of the time, but it's not really "telling who is American" in any meaningfully accurate way.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Creyeditor »

Just wanted to mention that bumblebees (Hummeln) are not considered bees in German. I was also taught that they bite.
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Re: How do you say "bee" and "wasp" in Algic languages?

Post by Salmoneus »

Vlürch wrote: 11 Aug 2021 15:38 But wait, what about appearance? I can easily tell apart wasps from bees based on how they look: wasps are yellow and black with dark hair, bees are orange and brown with light hair. Wasps look like sports cars or cheetahs, bees look like mopeds or house cats.
Again: you live in northern Europe. You don't have many types of wasp, so can mostly just assume that anything that isn't a prototypical wasp is a bee. This isn't true in the rest of the world. It's also not actually accurate even in Europe.

This, for instance, is a European wasp. One of them was in my house last week. It's not aggressive, though it has a very painful sting; it's not yellow and black; it doesn't look like a cheetah. (it's a ruby-tailed wasp).

This is also a European wasp. Not yellow and black; light hairs; doesn't look like a Ferrari.

This, on the other hand, is a European bee. Yes, if you look closely you can see it's a bit hairy, but that's easy to miss if you don't have a microscope to hand. It's just as brightly yellow-and-black as the archetypal 'wasp'. (it's a furrow-bee)

This is also a European bee. It has white stripes instead of yellow, but here the hairs really wouldn't be visible to a human eye without magnification. And it's long - very long! - and thin like a wasp. In fact, this is exactly the same species as the last one (the last was a female great-banded furrow-bee, while this is a male great-banded furrow-bee).

And again, this is a European bee. Bright yellow and black! (it's a carder bee)

And this is a European bee! Neither yellow nor brown, but just black - and almost bald like a wasp. (it's a harebell carpenter bee).

This, on the other hand, is a European wasp. Black/brown/red colour, quite hairy! Likewise, this European wasp is so hairy it's actually got 'hirta' in its name!

And when you go outside Europe?

This is a wasp from Australia - very hairy, and the females of this species actually have red-brown bands instead of yellow.

This, on the other hand, is a bee from New Zealand. Note its shiny, thin, bald body!

And this is a hairy wasp from the US!

Meanwhile, here's a test: is this a bee or a wasp? Answer:
Spoiler:
It's a bee
. How can you tell?
Spoiler:
There is no way to tell, you have to ask a scientist
.
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