An eleventh-degree relationship

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eldin raigmore
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An eleventh-degree relationship

Post by eldin raigmore »

What would you call your:
Parent’s parent’s sibling’s child’s spouse’s sibling’s spouse’s parent’s sibling’s child’s child?
Example:
Abe’s father Bob’s father Charlie’s brother Dave’s son Eddie’s wife Flo’s brother Gary’s wife Helen’s father Ike’s brother John’s son Kyle’s son Larry?

Charlie is Abe’s grandpa
Dave is Abe’s granduncle
Eddie is Abe’s first-cousin-once-removed (since he’s Bob’s cousin)
Flo is Bob’s cousin-in-law, or at least she’s Dave’s daughter-in-law
Gary is Eddie’s brother-in-law
Helen is Flo’s sister-in-law
Is Helen Eddie’s sister-in-law?
Ike is Gary’s father-in-law
John is Helen’s uncle
Does that make John be Gary’s uncle-in-law?
Kyle is Helen’s cousin
Does that make Kyle be Gary’s cousin-in-law?
And Larry is Helen’s first-cousin-once-removed.

So there are several acceptable fourth- and third-degree English kinterms in this chain; (like Albert to Eddie and Helen to Larry);
and also several quasi-acceptable semi-questionable fifth- and fourth-degree relationships: (like Eddie to Helen).

But would anyone consider Abe and Larry to be affine relatives?

They are each other’s cousin’s spouse’s sibling’s spouse’s cousin, to stretch the term “cousin”.

Does your cousin’s spouse’s sibling’s spouse count as a relative?
(Perhaps equivalently: does your spouse’s sibling’s spouse’s cousin count as a relative?)

If not in English; in any other language you know?
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Dormouse559
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Re: An eleventh-degree relationship

Post by Dormouse559 »

eldin raigmore wrote: 13 Oct 2021 10:06Does your cousin’s spouse’s sibling’s spouse count as a relative?
(Perhaps equivalently: does your spouse’s sibling’s spouse’s cousin count as a relative?)
English certainly doesn't have a specific term for this relationship or for the more distant one you gave. In my U.S. Anglophone cultural experience, that person would only be family to the extent that you personally consider them so. I suppose if you looked hard enough at the family reunions I've attended, you could find someone there with that sort of connection to me; I'd just refer to them with my catch-all term for a distant relative: "cousin".
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elemtilas
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Re: An eleventh-degree relationship

Post by elemtilas »

I think the answer here is that I'd call such a person "potential mate". Especially if she's smart & cute. She has no blood / genetic relationship (probably); and I tend to lose track of "family" relationships at about "parent's parent's sibling". If I met my grandmother's sister's granddaughter, I'd probably never even realise we're related. This girl who is, for me, three real relationship steps & a further eight pseudo-relationship steps away is basically a complete & unrelated stranger.

As I see it anyway, the scenario has three levels of unrelatedness. Once you left the immediate clan structure with that first "spouse", that's the end of it for me. Anyone else further along that line is as unrelated to me as parent’s parent’s sibling’s child’s spouse is!

Now, as a contrast, this is a problem that the Denê might find interesting. Generally speaking, their tabu relationships are only in the line of descent: so your parents, your grandparents, your kids and your grandkids are noli istas tangere. Considering that an older sibling of your grandmother could have been alive 2500 years ago and her line of descent might have five or ten generations to your three, it becomes less problematic as you move laterally across a family vine.

The only people that would consider a spouse to be related to themselves would be the siblings, parents and children of the person whose spouse it is. So if you were a Tana, you'd be related to your mate through marriage. Obviously! Your children (natural or adopted) would be related because she's their mother. Your siblings would consider her their sister. Your parents would consider her their daughter. Your siblings kids, your mother's sister's kids (who you would consider siblings) and so forth would not consider her related at all. The same goes for a Tana fellow who is married to twins. Your siblings would consider both of them their sisters. A good 60%+ of all female births are a set of female1 & female2 twins. F1+F1 twins are rarer at about 5 to 7%. F1, F2 singletons together comprise about 15% or so and F2+M1 or F1+M2 births are of increasing rarity beyond that. Biology weirds!

Many Denê cultures have a sort of generic word for ever more distant relations. I usually translate the concept with the word "cousin" or "friend".
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eldin raigmore
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Re: An eleventh-degree relationship

Post by eldin raigmore »

The basic questions seem to be (or might be):

* Is one’s cousin’s cousin kin to one? If so, in what languages/cultures? And what is the proper kinterm, if there is one?

* Is one’s in-law’s in-law kin to one? If so, in what languages/culture’s? And what is the proper kinterm, if there is one?

…..

I expect there to be different answers for different cultures and different languages. (That’s probably obvious, but I thought it wouldn’t hurt to say so, just in case.)

…..

There are probably another pair of questions.

* Is one’s cousin’s in-law kin to one?
* Is one’s in-law’s cousin kin to one?

And in which languages/cultures, and what are the correct kinterms?

….

The OP question was about a cousin’s in-law’s in-law’s cousin.

__________=====__________=====__________
=====__________=====__________=====

@Dormouse and @elemtilas:

In my RL USAmerican Anglophone experience, one might encounter one’s sibling’s spouse’s sibling or one’s spouse’s sibling’s spouse frequently enough at family gatherings, such as major National annual holidays lasting longer than one or two days, to call them sibling-in-law, even if it’s technically an inexactitude of the terminology.

At family reunions of even further-extended family, lasting three or four or even seven days, one is likely to meet and get to know one’s cousin’s spouse’s siblings or sibling’s spouse’s cousins, and come to consider them kin; though I never heard anyone use any sort of compact kinterm to refer to such relatives. Instead they would use a compound term like cousin’s brother-in-law or sister-in-law’s cousin; or, more likely, (proper name)’s cousin or (proper name)’s brother-in-law.

(Still talking about Anglophone USAmerica! And for all I know just my own idiolect!)

….

I wonder whether Spanish-speaking Americans have a different arrangement? Or any other linguistic community in North America? Seems likely! (To me, anyway; YMMV).

….

I don’t feel like I’ve ever truly thought of any of my cousins’ spouses’ cousins as being my kin. Maybe other people have a different experience. Or maybe I’m not remembering correctly. I seldom met them. I did meet cousin’s spouse’s siblings and sibling’s spouse’s cousins; not often, though.

I met my wives’ cousins’ spouses rather more often.
I might not have felt kin to them either, but I probably got closer to them than to my
cousins’ spouses’ siblings and siblings’ spouses’ cousins.
Certainly closer than to my cousins’ spouses’ cousins!

________….________….________….________
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