Forma partitiva

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Omzinesý
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Forma partitiva

Post by Omzinesý »

How do languages express partitive? I mean the original partitive SOME material.
I hate tourist phrases but. Let's say for example:
:eng: I would like to have (some) coffee.
loss of article, (a partitive article?)
:fin: Tahtoisin kahvia.
partitive case, used for many other functions, too
:sme: Háliidivččen gáfiid.
plural
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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rickardspaghetti
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by rickardspaghetti »

:usa: (Lakota) Waȟkályapi eyá yačhíŋ he?
Uses an indefinite article which functions as a partitive. Just like English does it.
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Ossicone »

Omzinesý wrote: :eng: I would like to have (some) coffee.
loss of article, (a partitive article?)
I don't know how I feel about the sentence: I would like to have coffee.
I'd say it's valid but a bit weird. I definitely prefer it with the 'some' in there.
More naturally, I'd go with: I'd like some coffee. But like you said it's a tourist phrase so it's going to be a bit formal.

:esp: Querría tomar un café.
Indefinite article used here too.

I think 'Querría tomar café.' would also be valid but kinda weird like English.
Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong. :roll:
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Ear of the Sphinx
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

:pol: very informal
Kawy.
coffee.gen

:pol: informal
Chcę kawy.
want.1sg coffee.gen

:pol: usual
Chcę trochę kawy.
want.1sg some coffee.gen

:pol: formal
Chciałbym trochę kawy.
want.con.1sg some coffee.gen

:pol: very formal
Czy mógłbym prosić o trochę kawy?
q can.con.1sg beg.inf about some coffee.gen
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by xinda »

:roc:
能給我一些咖啡嗎?
able give 1s some coffee QUE

一些 means "some", or "a little".
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by eldin raigmore »

I think French, and several other languages, use genitive;
"I would to have of the coffee".


(Edit:
Visinoid wrote:French has no cases, so it doesn't use genitive.
I meant it uses the genitive preposition "de", which for French, like many other languages, is homophonous with the partitive preposition "de". /Edit)
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 10 Oct 2011 21:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Visinoid
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Visinoid »

French has no cases, so it doesn't use genitive. BUT, we do use ''of the'' as the partitive article.

''J'aimerais boire du café.'' Masculine Partitive Article

''Je veux boire de l'eau.'' Feminine Partitive Connected Article
(I want to drink (some) water.)

''Je veux boire de la limonade.'' Feminine Partitive Article
(I want to drink (some) limonade.)

It's the most misused article in French by foreigners. ^^'

And the only other romance language in my range of knowledge that uses the same pattern is Italian, and though, it's not even obligatory.

As for Spanish, the most used sentence would be ''Querría(Europe)/Quisiera(South America) tomar café.''

Edit:

I've re-read most of the posts, and I found out an error.

In the example ''coffee'', it can be considered as a countable AND an uncountable object.

As for ''water'', which only can only be uncountable, would be a much better example. You can't say: ''I'd like to drink a water.''

In those cases, Spanish and English have the same behavior, they drop out the article.

In Spanish neither, you can't say: ''Querría beber una agua.'' You have to drop out the article. ''Querría beber agua.''
Last edited by Visinoid on 10 Oct 2011 21:25, edited 1 time in total.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by eldin raigmore »

Visinoid wrote:''J'aimerais boire du café.'' Masculine Partitive Article
What about "Je voudrais avoir du café."?
Really, really wrong? Kind of weird-sounding? Or OK?
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Visinoid »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Visinoid wrote:''J'aimerais boire du café.'' Masculine Partitive Article
What about "Je voudrais avoir du café."?
Really, really wrong? Kind of weird-sounding? Or OK?
It's totally correct. I wonder why words have to always be THE SAME. -_- You don't have to. As long as it's logical and syntactically correct. It's only another way to say the same thing.
eldin raigmore wrote:I think French, and several other languages, use genitive;
"I would to have of the coffee".


(Edit:
Visinoid wrote:French has no cases, so it doesn't use genitive.
I meant it uses the genitive preposition "de", which for French, like many other languages, is homophonous with the partitive preposition "de". /Edit)
''De'' is not a partitive preposition...
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by xijlwya »

:eng: I would like to have (some) coffee.

:deu: Ich hätte gern etwas Kaffee.
1SG have\SBJ like some coffee
-> Implies that you are talking about the uncountable liquid coffee, e.g. you want some more liquid into your cup.

:deu: Ich hätte gern einen Kaffee.
1SG have\SBJ like a coffee
-> Implies that you talk about one specific instance of coffee, e.g. a cup full or the like.

So basically very similar to English here. I used the gloss \SBJ for "Konjuktiv" here. I have no clue whether that is non-standart.
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Systemzwang »

Visinoid wrote: ''De'' is not a partitive preposition...
On what basis do you tell us it isn't? Because it isn't called so in French Academy standard publications? Fact is, it behaves a lot like partitives in a lot of languages that do have partitives, and hence, including it among partitives when trying to figure how languages in general handle partitivey things is called for. Stop being stupid.
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Ear of the Sphinx
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

Systemzwang wrote:
Visinoid wrote: ''De'' is not a partitive preposition...
On what basis do you tell us it isn't? Because it isn't called so in French Academy standard publications? Fact is, it behaves a lot like partitives in a lot of languages that do have partitives, and hence, including it among partitives when trying to figure how languages in general handle partitivey things is called for. Stop being stupid.
Visinoid said it is partitive article, not partitive preposition.
Visinoid wrote:French has no cases, so it doesn't use genitive. BUT, we do use ''of the'' as the partitive article.
Hmm... How about cases conveyed by other means than endings?

Anyway, that would put French along with Polish in the genitive-partitive merger category.
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Visinoid »

Systemzwang wrote:
Visinoid wrote: ''De'' is not a partitive preposition...
On what basis do you tell us it isn't? Because it isn't called so in French Academy standard publications? Fact is, it behaves a lot like partitives in a lot of languages that do have partitives, and hence, including it among partitives when trying to figure how languages in general handle partitivey things is called for. Stop being stupid.
Basis: French is my native language and I study linguistic.

''Stop being stupid'': This is so uncalled for. :( I never attack people personally. I always want to help.
Milyamd wrote: Hmm... How about cases conveyed by other means than endings?

Anyway, that would put French along with Polish in the genitive-partitive merger category.
This is indeed much more clever to call their respective behavior that way. :)
Milyamd wrote:Hmm... How about cases conveyed by other means than endings?
I understand the ''case-incomprehension'' problem here. Why not call a preposition a declension? Because it wasn't named that way by the first linguists... They were fools to compare any language with Latin: see how people are calling others ''idiots'' nowadays. That's why I never learned, nor will, Latin... I was first taught declension by the means of German, which only have few 4 cases.

We could rebel and say that Polish and French share the same ''origin-partitive marker''. (Which is only a mere synonym to what Milyamd already succeeded to say. :) )
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Creyeditor »

:con: Kobardon

Adako vūnda.
a-dak-o vūnd-a
1SG-want-3SG water-INDEF
I want (some) water.

Mass nouns in Kobardon usually occur with an indefinite singular form. I guess in a non-partitive form you could use a definite singular suffix.
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Re: Forma partitiva

Post by Reyzadren »

:con: griuskant (without script here)

icyr skuyan.
/'itʃYr 'skujan/
coffee want-V-PASS
I would like to have (some) coffee.
Image griuskant thread | Image conlang summary
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