Page 3 of 3

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 21 Dec 2017 15:22
by Alessio
:ita: Italiano
L'uomo vede la donna usare il telescopio.
/l‿wɔːmo 'vede la 'dɔnna u'zaːre il tele'skɔːpjo/
lo uomo ved-e la donna us-are il telescopio
DEF.MS man see-3SG DEF.FS woman use-INF DEF.MS telescope


:con: Hecathver/Häħadhvar
Ic hunke mirshët is belasses dauboe (zab) havarët is gälils.
/itʃ 'hunke mir'ʃøt is be'lasses 'dau̯boe̯ zab hava'røt is 'gælils/
ic hunke mirsh-ët i-s belasse-s dau-boe zab havar-ët i-s gälil-s
DEF man see-3SG DEF-ACC woman-ACC time-same she use-3SG DEF-ACC telescope-ACC

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 23:29
by Reyzadren
:con: griuskant (without the conscript)

stevo jiska stevae vaezh sizomjiskkorb.
/'stəvɔ 'dʒiska 'stəve veʒ 'sizɔmdʒiskkɔrb/
boy see-V girl with space.see.tool
The man sees the woman with a telescope.

stevo jiska stevae zhosta sizomjiskkorb.
/'stəvɔ 'dʒiska 'stəve 'ʒɔsta 'sizɔmdʒiskkɔrb/
boy see-V girl use-V space.see.tool
The man sees the woman that is using a telescope.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 02 Jan 2020 08:58
by Dormouse559
Image Silvish

Ly ôme vous le femel lu telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ly.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC DEF-M.C.OBL telescope

The man sees the woman (by) using the telescope.

Ly ôme vous le femel all uzâ lo telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ʔɑl.lyˈzɑː lo.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC to use-INF DEF-M.C telescope

The man sees the woman (who is) using the telescope.


These sentences aren't ambiguous in Silvish. The instrumental version is fun because it shows one of the contexts where a noun in the oblique case can be used without a preposition. When the instrument is singular, definite and common gender, you can use the phrasing above, but if one of those criteria isn't met, you have to use the preposition avec. For example, the preposition gets added if we make "telescope" indefinite:

Ly ôme vous le femel avec in telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ʔa̝ˈvɛk ʔɛ̃n.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC with INDEF.M telescope

The man sees the woman (by) using a telescope.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 21 Jan 2020 16:43
by Void
:con: Tsaqʼma

Itjukʼ ashtgutsucchirksi kjakʼak jûfar.
[ˈɪtjʏkʼ ɑʃtɰʊˈtsʊhtʃɪrksɪ ˈcjækʼɑk ˈjyːfɒr̥]
3SG.AN>3SG.AN-see-NON.FUT telescope-INST man-ERG woman-ABS
"The man sees the woman by means of a telescope."

This translation is unambiguous, as no one would think that the woman is the one holding the telescope. To indicate that she is indeed the telescope-operator, ashtgutsucchirksi TELESCOPE should be placed after jûfar WOMAN.

Itjukʼ kjakʼak jûfar ashtgutsucchirksi.

ashtgutsucchirksi is the instrumental form of ashtgutsucchir TELESCOPE, derived from two morphemes: ashtgu STAR and -tsucchir, a suffix used to form nominals related to seeing and looking. The suffix itself is synchronically derived from two other elements: tsucchûs OBSERVER; LOOKOUT and the suffix -ir, used to form agentive/active nominals.

The diachronic reasoning for the loss of the suffix -ûs in tsucchûs is simply due to the perpetual laziness of people and an attempt to say more consuming less energy. The old Tsaqʼma element was *-tsuččúsir, itself derived from *tjukʼjús SPY, from *tjukʼ- SEE (whence also modern Tsaqʼma tjukʼ SEE) and the suffix *-jús, used to form miscellaneous nominals. Why the palatilization in -tsucchir but not in modern tjukʼ? Beats me, every language has elements of randomness.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 24 Jan 2020 22:46
by Salmoneus
Dormouse559 wrote:
02 Jan 2020 08:58


These sentences aren't ambiguous in Silvish.
But you only give two sentences, for the three meanings?

It's easier to distinguish if we find a context that's more aspectually ambiguous...

The man sees the woman cashing his cheques

can mean:

a) the man, whilst he is cashing his cheques, sees the woman
b) the man sees the woman, whilst she is cashing his cheques
c) the man sees a woman, and she is the woman who is (but not necessarily at that instant!) cashing his cheques

Hmm, not as good as I thought. How about:

The man sees the woman earning the highest salary in the company (OK, this example makes the first option hard to access, but makes the difference between the other two clearer)

Or:

The man sees the woman answering to the name 'Jane' (again, doesn't help the first meaning, but the other two are clear: is she the woman who answers to that name, or does he specifically see her answering to that name?)

Ahha! How about:

The man had read about the woman researching his family history

Did the man:
a) read about her while he was researching his family history?
b) read about the fact that she was researching his family history?
or
c) read about the woman who (whether he knew it or not!) was in fact researching his family history?


Anyway, my point is that the English construction leaves the participial phrase ambiguous not only in whether its head is an object or a subject, but also in its scope.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 25 Jan 2020 07:04
by Dormouse559
Salmoneus wrote:
24 Jan 2020 22:46
But you only give two sentences, for the three meanings?
Actually, I gave two sentences for two meanings, and put the wrong meaning on one of the sentences, and forgot to give a translation for the meaning I incorrectly assigned, so the situation is really quite simple and easy to understand.

Image Silvish

The first sentence is fine:

Ly ôme vous le femel lu telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ly.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC DEF-M.C.OBL telescope

The man sees the woman (by) using the telescope.

This second sentence is correct, but I gave the wrong English translation:

Ly ôme vous le femel all uzâ lo telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ʔɑl.lyˈzɑː lo.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC to use-INF DEF-M.C telescope

The man sees the woman (while she is) using the telescope.

Then there's the translation of the meaning I mis-assigned:

Ly ôme vous le femel quy ûza lo telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ˈkjyː.za lo.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC REL-NOM use-3S DEF-M.C telescope

The man sees the woman (who is) using the telescope.

Then, there's a fourth interpretation I hadn't noticed before in Imralu's OP:

Ly ôme vous le femel in uzan lo telescôpo.
[ˈʎˑɔː.mə ˈvus le.fəˈmɛl ʔẽ.yˈzɑ̃ŋ lo.te.ləˈskɔː.pə]
DEF man see-3S DEF-F.N woman.ACC in use-GER DEF-M.C telescope

The man sees the woman (while he is) using the telescope.

That sentence can also have the "by using" meaning. I think that puts everything in order.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 10 Feb 2020 12:35
by Iyionaku
:con: Yélian

The fact that "telescope" exists in my dictionary but "microscope" does not tells me that I did this challenge in the past too.

A'broya blidet an'áia fecun ykesul.
[ɐˈbɾoːʃɐ ˈbliːdət ɐnˈaːɪ̯ɐ ˈɸeːkʉn ˈʃkeːsʉl]
DEF.ANIM=man see-3SG DEF.ANIM=woman with telescope
The man sees the woman with the telescope.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 08 May 2020 02:20
by GrandPiano
:es-pv: Basque

Gizonak teleskopioaz emakumea ikusten du.
/gis̻onak teles̺kopioas̻ emakumea ikus̺ten du/
gizon=ak teleskopio=az emakume=a ikus-ten d-Ø-u-Ø-Ø
man=ERG.SG telescope=INSTR.SG woman=ABS.SG see-PRESP 3.ABS-SG.ABS-AUX.TR-3SG.ERG-PRS

The man sees the woman using the telescope. (The man has the telescope)

Gizonak teleskopioa erabiltzen ari den emakumea ikusten du.
/gis̻onak teles̺kopioa eɾabilt͡s̻en aɾi den emakumea ikus̺ten du/
gizon=ak teleskopio=a erabil-tzen ari da-en emakume=a ikus-ten d-Ø-u-Ø-Ø
man=ERG.SG telescope=ABS.SG use-PRESP PROG COP.3SG.PRES-REL woman=ABS.SG see-PRESP 3.ABS-SG.ABS-AUX.TR-3SG.ERG-PRS

The man sees the woman using the telescope. (The woman has the telescope)

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 11 May 2020 17:36
by KaiTheHomoSapien
Noun case can differentiate that in Lihmelinyan:

lēmas amíntān warántan sarumárkatran ušēti.

man-NOM woman-ACC using-ACC.S.FEM telescope-ACC see-3.SG.PRES

The man sees the woman using the telescope (the woman has the telescope).

lēmas amíntān waránts sarumárkatran ušēti.

man-NOM woman-ACC using-NOM.S.MASC telescope-ACC see-3.SG.PRES

The man, using the telescope, sees the woman (the man has the telescope).

You could also simply avoid using the verb wárami "I use" and put "telescope" in the instrumental case:

lēmas amíntān sarumárkatrah ušēti.

man-NOM woman-ACC telescope-INS see-3.SG.PRES

The man sees the woman with the telescope.

This would unambiguously mean the man has the telescope. To show that the woman has it, a participle would have to be used.

Telescopes haven't yet been invented in Manter, but I created the word on the fly by combining saru "far" with mark- "look at" and -tran "thing". The far-look at-thing. Could also mean "binoculars" I guess, but maybe it means that in the dual.

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 18 May 2020 12:55
by Void
:con: Θrūvaṛvāma / Thurvic

Vātak tuṇurvātákkaksi váćari sappūm.
[ˈʋɑːtɑk tuˌŋurʋɑːˈtɑhkɑksi ˈʋɑtʃɑri ˈsɑhpuːm]
3SG.SUBJ-see-3SG.AN.OBJ telescope-INST man-NOM woman-ACC
"The man, by means of a telescope, sees the woman."

Thurvic is a head-initial language with a strong preference for VSO word-order. However, adverbial phrases are typically translated as nominal ones which modify the main arguments by preceeding them, rather than following them (as these are syntactically nominal compounds of the form Nhead Ndependent rather than the other way around as expected).

An alternative analysis indicates that these adverbal nominals in fact modify the verb (which is why tuṇurvātákkaksi follows the head verb, aligning with the head-initial analysis), since expressing the meaning that is it in fact the woman which is using the telescope, one would have to use the substantivizing suffix -ir to create a true nominal from tuṇurvātákkaksi.

Vātak váćari tuṇurvātakkaksiúrsappūm.
[ˈʋɑːtɑk ˈʋɑtʃɑri tuˌŋurʋɑːˌtɑhkɑksi.ˈursɑhpuːm]
3SG.SUBJ-see-3SG.AN.OBJ man-NOM telescope-INST-NMLZ:woman-ACC
"The man saw the telescope-using woman."

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 18 May 2020 23:16
by lsd
I'm afraid I can't translate the ambiguity...

lekuduluojernoulebguo
man-seeing-through-object-to-woman
lekulebguokuduluornou
man-seeing-woman-seeing-through-object

Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Posted: 19 May 2020 05:59
by Pabappa
Poswa:

Yes, I know I already did this, but I have an update. I dont think the instrumental case should really be used to solve the ambiguity, as I did in my previous post..... it's a bit like inventing the word "cashifying" to solve the ambiguity in the sentences Sal posted.

I think that Poswa as it is spoken normally is simply ambiguous here, and I have to admit that my language has flaws like that, and that unlike English, there is no easy way to overcome them because there aren't any convenient function words that can be stuck here and there to clarify the meanings of other function words.

Sapa paefus pwuppamatšiava.
man woman-GEN telescope-3P-see-3P

"See" isnt normally expressed by a verb anymore, it could be described as a clitic that when used in 1st person becomes an evidential. The 3rd person is marked twice, but remains ambiguous, because there is no room for things like a reflexive marker, or a transitivity marker, since it's no longer being parsed as a verb. On the other hand, that still means this type of sentence is ambiguous *only* for cases in which the word English sees as the main verb is a mere affix in Poswa. If the sentence were instead

"The man took a picture of the woman using the telescope", where Poswa's verb for taking a picture is tappamae, the first sentence can be translated as

Sapa, paefup pwuppamatšias, tappamaežebel.
man, woman-ACC telescope-3P-GEN, save.picture-TR-3P.PAST
The man took a picture of the woman who was using the telescope.

The second sentence could be word-for-word the same, but with different rhythm, such as
Sapa paefup pwuppamatšias tappamaežebel.
man woman-ACC telescope-3P-GEN save.picture-TR-3P.PAST
The lack of any pause during the sentence indicates that the verbs all have the same person argument. This is not possible to do in the original example because there is only one verb in the sentence. However, even so, the more common thing to do is to put the serial verb last, saying something such as
Sapa paefup tappamaežebel, pwuppamatšias.
The man took a picture of the woman while he was using the telescope.
Edit: oh right, obedience morphemes. i'm really out of practice. Im not firm on this, but I might decide to add an /-i-/ to the verb for the woman in the first sentence, as if saying she was obeying him by using the telescope, as a roundabout way of marking a 4th person. Whereas if there is only one agent in the sentence, there is nobody to obey. The obedience morphemes also get used literally, so there is *still* ambiguity, but of a different type. The obedience marker shifts to /af/ when occurring after another /i/, so the verb for the woman would be pwuppamatšiafas.