Ablative Absolute

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zyx3166
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by zyx3166 »

Roguel:
Gore takpipetin, anoskepna bikcatizkem.
gore takpi-pet-in anos-kep-na bik-cat-izk-em
city catch-PASS-ADV arms-AGENT-PL ABL-go-PAST-3PL
With the city captured, the soldiers left.
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Chagen
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Chagen »

:con: Heocg:

An instrumental absolute is used here.

stukkar cargomuyo, ratraði sywasorur.
city-GEN.SG capture.PST-PTCPL.PASS-INSTR.SG, warrior-NOM.PL depart-MID-PST

One can also see an Azenti loan--"sywas", "depart", from Azenti "zyuas", meaning "to go out/to leave". Azenti loans in Heocg are like Romance loans in English--more prestigious than the native equivalent.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
Nortaneous
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Nortaneous »

This is about as forced in Kannow as it is in English, but the direct translation would be:
Hecsàna iqʼiw sʼaŗen, kròrʼamán.
[heçtsʷʰɔɑ̯nɑ jeqʼai̯w tsʼɑren kʂʷoə̯ʈʂʼamaɔ̯nʷ]
hec-sà-na-a iqʼi-ow sʼaŗe-n, krò-rʼam-n`
INFER.PST-depart-C4.D.SG-C1.A.PL soldier-C1.DEF city-C4.DEF, NONF.PST.MID-capture-C4.P.SG

A more natural way to phrase it would be the equivalent of "After capturing the city, the soldiers departed":
Hecsàna rorʼamnà iqʼiw sʼaŗen.
[heçtsʷʰɔɑ̯nɑ ɖʐəʈʂʼɑɔ̯mnʷɔ jeqʼai̯w tsʼɑren]
hec-sà-na-a ro-rʼam-n`-a iqʼi-ow sʼaŗe-n
INFER.PST-depart-C4.D.SG-C1.A.PL NONF.PST-capture-C4.P.SG-C1.A.PL soldier-C1.DEF city-C4.DEF
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Znex
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Znex »

Classic application of Ancient Greek's genitive absolute:
:grc: Attic Greek:
τῆς πόλεως ἁλούσης, ἔλιπον οἱ στρατιῶται.
[tέεs pó.le.ɔːs ha.luú.sεːs é.li.pon hoi stra.ti.ɔ́ɔ.tai]
DEF-SG.GEN.F city-GEN capture.AOR.PART.PSS.F-SG.GEN leave.AOR.ACT-3PL DEF.M.NOM.PL soldier-NOM.PL
After the city was captured, the soldiers left.
Nortaneous wrote:A more natural way to phrase it would be the equivalent of "After capturing the city, the soldiers departed"
Except the use of the absolute construction implies there is no immediate connection between the two phrases (ie. the soldiers could not have captured the city, but rather it is likely they simply left after it was captured by someone else). If there was a connection, Greek and Latin would use a simple nominative active participle and have the city as its object within the sentence, or make the city the sentence's subject and use a passive construction.
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Imralu
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Imralu »

:tan: Swahili:

Jiji likiwa limetekwa, wanajeshi waliondoka.
jiji li-ki-w-a li-me-tek-w-a | wanajeshi wa-li-ondok-a
city(5) 5-SIT-be-Ø 5-PRF-besiege-PASS-Ø | soldiers(2) 2-PST-leave-Ø

With the city having been captured, the soldiers left.

Fairly compact but not as compact as Latin - the compound perfect needed because of -ki- makes it longer, but I have read that a new verb form, not yet recognised in the standard language, is making up for this, combining -ki-, the situational marker (more or less like a participle), and -sha- "already" (from kwisha "to finish"):

Jiji likishatekwa, wanajeshi waliondoka.
jiji li-ki-sha-tek-w-a | wanajeshi wa-li-ondok-a
city(5) 5-SIT-already-besiege-PASS-Ø | soldiers(2) 2-PST-leave-Ø

With the city having been captured, the soldiers left.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Iyionaku
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Paatherye has a Locative Absolute that fulfills the same goal.

जीमूयु मोत़ फ़ि त़ड़िंमु जलेवूमि.
Jīmūyu mētan fi tanrimmu jalewūmi.

[d͡ʒiːˈmuːju ˈmeːtan fi tanˈrimmu jaleˈuːmi]
capture.PP.FEM.LOC city.ACC DEF.PL.NOM soldier.PL leave.PRET.3PL
At the capturing of the city, the soldiers left.
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Alessio
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Alessio »

In :ita: Italian, I would render this as:

A città catturata, i soldati se ne andarono.

However this does not necessarily imply a relation based on causality, but rather on time; I'm not sure the ablative absolute does imply causality, though, so if not, this is for sure the most accurate translation, and I will go farther than that: maybe this particular instance of "a" evolved from "ā/ab" rather than from "ad", and that "ā/ab" was, in some stage, used in place of the ablative much like "dē" was used in place of the genitive while Latin was losing its cases. So this is the direct descendant of the ablative absolute. This is all guesswork though, I have no evidence to back it up.

Some of you suggested the usage of "Essendo che...". It works, but it's not very elegant:

Essendo che la città era stata catturata, i soldati se ne andarono.
or possibly
Essendo la città [stata] catturata, i soldati se ne andarono.

This would translate as "being it so that the city had been captured, the soldiers left". This version does imply (and underline) causality, so it might be what you're looking for.
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...
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Imralu
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Imralu »

I interpreted this as being about time, not causality.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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marvelous
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by marvelous »

:con: Ganur Lon

Ke'jimpute kovo, lancndi komastont.
/ke.jim'pu.te 'ko.vo lan'cn̩.di ko'mas.tont/
when=INDEF.SBJ-seize-3SG.NTOP.OBJ-REC city-DEF.ACC 3PL.TOP.SBJ-go-outward-REM foot-protrusion-person
When the city had recently been seized, the soldiers departed.

This is assuming that the speaker is writing about something that happened before they were alive. There are four past tenses in Ganur Lon:

-(i)te: recent past; within the current season. the i is included after voiced consonants and after a consonant cluster ending in t.
-ha: normal past, neither recent nor remote.
-(i)lo: remote past, a long time ago but while the speaker was still alive (for adults their childhood or adolescence). the i is included after a consonant cluster ending in l.
-(k)i: very remote past, before the speaker was alive. the k is included after a vowel, so with transitive verbs essentially.

For pluperfect constructions, a subordinate clause can be conjugated relative to the time and subject(s) of the main clause, which is what is happening in the above sentence.

It is also technically grammatically possible, but not idiomatic, to say Li'kov pekjimpau, "with the captured city" or "with the city captured."

I chose to make the soldiers the topic, but the city could also be the topic and the sentence would look slightly different. I also chose to understate the topic by making it implicit; I could have put it at the front followed by the word me to really emphasize it.
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Omzinesý
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Omzinesý »

Karu
could have absolute constructions as the main way of forming adverbial clauses. Their case is Oblique Case. But I think this is not were Olbiquus absolutus is used in Karu. Both clauses have the same subject, so Nominative with a an infinite relative clause, a participle, is better.
Translating the participle with a relative clause: 'The soldier that had conquered the town left.'
The (a) sentence has a causal implication 'Because they had already conquered the town, they had no reason to stay.'
The (b) sentence has Discontinuous Past form (DISCP) that says that such a causal ling does not exist. 'Although they now were holding the town, they still left.'

(a)
Pensu karfisinun karfi ueuato.
pensu karfisi-nun-∅ karfi-∅ REDUBL-wato-∅
town conquer-PERF.ACT.PTCP-NOM soldier-NOM COLL-leave-3

(b)
Pensu karfisisir karfi ueuato.
pensu karfisi-sir-∅ karfi-∅ REDUBL-wato-∅
town conquer-DISCP.ACT.PTCP-NOM soldier-NOM COLL-leave-3


When I first tried to translate it with Obliquues Absolutus:
Spoiler:
Literally the sentence means something like 'With their conquered town, the soldiers left.'

(a)
Karfisironge pensukin, karfi ueuato.
karfisi-ron-ke pensu-ki-n, karfi REDUBL-wato-∅
conquer-PERF.PTCP.PSS-OBL.ADJ-POSS3 town-OBL.N, soldier COLL-leave-3
'Having conquered the town, the soldiers left.

(b)
Karfisisirge pensukin, karfi ueuato.
karfisi-sir-ke pensu-ki-n, karfi REDUBL-wato-∅
conquer-DISCP.PTCP.PSS-OBL.ADJ-POSS3 town-OBL.N, soldier COLL-leave-3
'Having conquered the town, the soldiers left.
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Reyzadren
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Reyzadren »

:con: griuskant (without script here)

kaeir ystuzman zhera huige eshsula.
/'keir 'Ystuzman 'ʒəra 'huigə 'əʃsula/
town multi-seize-V-PASS then-V fight-N reverse-come-V
With the city having been captured, the soldiers departed.
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Iyionaku
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Re: Ablative Absolute

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Paatherye

Paatherye uses a locative absolute for the same use case.

Jīmuyu mētayu fi tanrimmu jalewumī.
[ˈd͡ʒiːmuju ˈmeːtaju fi tanˈrim.mu d͡ʒaleˈ.umiː]
capture.PP.LOC city.LOC DEF.PL.NOM soldier.PL go_away.PRET.3PL
With the city having been captured, the soldiers departed.
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