We with my friends at my father's place

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Omzinesý
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We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Omzinesý »

The sentence:

We with my friends were having a party at my father's place.


There are two grammatical decitions in that sentence.

1. We with my friends means "we" = 'me and my friends'. Can you say that or should you say 'I and my friends' or 'we, hence me and my friends, ...'?


2. 'at one's place' can be expressed (at least) in three ways

A. At one's place is an adposition
Swedish: "hos min pappa"
The etymology of "hos" is clear?

B. 'Place' is a noun that takes an genitive attribute, like in English above.

C. Yidiny that has double marking of case can have genitive and locative in the same word.
Someting like 'at my father's '
English does that with restaurants.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 13 Jun 2013 13:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Click
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Re: We with my friends in my father's place

Post by Click »

"We with my friends" is ungrammatical for me. I'd rather use "me with my friends" instead.
Omzinesý wrote:We with my friends means "we" = 'me and my fiends'.
friend fiend

Please check your spelling. It's not that hard to do that.

Thakowsaizmu
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Re: We with my friends in my father's place

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

Omzinesý wrote:
We with my friends were having a party in my father's place.
Me and my friends were having a party at my father's place (Colloquial. This is what I would normally say)
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place

~or~

We were having a party at my father's place with my friends. (I would assume this to be more of a reportive sentence though.)

Ithisa
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Re: We with my friends in my father's place

Post by Ithisa »

I usually say I and my friends ... (me sounds like a child (me wants it!) to me, and "... and I" sounds weird since the focus is yourself) though I'm definitely not a native speaker.
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Re: We with my friends in my father's place

Post by Ossicone »

"I and my friends" just sounds bizarre to me.

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Re: We with my friends in my father's place

Post by Ithisa »

Ossicone wrote:"I and my friends" just sounds bizarre to me.
Oh really? lol. I say it a lot, often as ['ɑijəmmɑi'fɹɛnz]...

I live in Canada, maybe it is more common here?
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Omzinesý
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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Omzinesý »

Friends and at corrected.
But remember that the clause in the first message was just the clause in the meta language. You can well translate it into English, if you want.

"I and my friends" sounds bizarre to me, too. I've never SAID either of them though.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

It is considered proper English to put yourself last as the subject in the nominative. So it is proper to say "my friends and I" or "my Mother and I" or "my dog and I". Doesn't matter who or what you are with, it is just considered proper. "I and my friends" sounds bizarre to a native ear, and also conceited. This is no doubt due to having it drilled that it is proper to put yourself last in those instances. So when it comes to a sentence (colloquial again) like "me and my XX", you can think of it as topic marking if you want. It is considered improper English to use "me" in the nominative sense (and it is improper), like one would never say "me went to the store". But it is perfectly natural and accepted in a more colloquial register to say "me and my friends went to the store", and again I would consider this (in my dialect at the very least) topic marking. "Me and my friends" is the topic, in that case.

Think of it as more idiomatic, you are not likely to encounter it outside of including yourself in a group, though distinguishing yourself in some way from the group.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Ithisa »

Thakowsaizmu wrote:It is considered proper English to put yourself last as the subject in the nominative. So it is proper to say "my friends and I" or "my Mother and I" or "my dog and I". Doesn't matter who or what you are with, it is just considered proper. "I and my friends" sounds bizarre to a native ear, and also conceited. This is no doubt due to having it drilled that it is proper to put yourself last in those instances. So when it comes to a sentence (colloquial again) like "me and my XX", you can think of it as topic marking if you want. It is considered improper English to use "me" in the nominative sense (and it is improper), like one would never say "me went to the store". But it is perfectly natural and accepted in a more colloquial register to say "me and my friends went to the store", and again I would consider this (in my dialect at the very least) topic marking. "Me and my friends" is the topic, in that case.

Think of it as more idiomatic, you are not likely to encounter it outside of including yourself in a group, though distinguishing yourself in some way from the group.
Wow. I learned something new...
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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by nzk13 »

Huh. It seems I'll be the first to actually post a translation. Cool.

:con: Dimath

Ank uwanksim tumumi pavisikimim anks batas yabif.
[aŋk uˈwaŋksim ˈtumumi paviˈsikimim aŋks ˈbatas ˈyabif]
ank uw=ank-s-im tumu-mi pa-vi-sikim-im ank-s bat-as yab-if
1SG and=1SG-GEN-PL friend-PL PST-VRBLZR-happy-PL 1SG-GEN father-GEN house-in
= I and my friends laughed in my father's house.
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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Lao Kou »

Image Géarthnuns

Putting "I" first in Géarthnuns is about putting pronouns before noun-nouns in any situation and is not about where you see yourself in the politesse pecking order. It also means you can ditch "my" in this sentence:

Sí zhö chauk zhömauíörsaup lé chö béöbsöv chö dhabsös dhvénazh.
1SG-NOM and DEF.PL friend-NOM.PL AUX.PAST DEF house-LOC DEF father-GEN have.party
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

(suggests that Dad is out of town and will probably be none too thrilled at the condition of his digs when he gets back. PARTAY! WOOT!)

Sí zhö chauk zhömauíörsaup lé chö dhabsöb chlai dhvénazh.
1SG-NOM and DEF.PL friend-NOM.PL AUX.PAST DEF father-POST "chez/bei/hos" have.party
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

(suggests that he was there, if not hosting, at least chaperoning -- "Hey, guys, who's up for a ginger ale and a rousing game of cribbage?")
Last edited by Lao Kou on 16 Mar 2016 04:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Pirka »

I could say this several ways...

:rus:
Мы с друзьями устроили вечеринку у моего отца.
My s druzjěmi ustroili večerinku u mé otca.
Lit. "We with friends arranged a party at my father's."

Мы с друзьями тусовали у моего отца.
My s druzjěmi tusovali u mé otca.
Lit. "We with friends hung out at my father's."

P.S.: glossing Russian is a pain so I just didn't bother.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Creyeditor »

:deu: German
Wir, also ich und mein-e Freunde, hab-en bei mein-em Vater ge-feier-t.
1PL.NOM thus 1SG.NOM and 1SG.POSS-PL.NOM AUX.PRF-1PL.PRS.IND at 1SG.POSS-SG.DAT father PTCP.PRF-to.have.a.party-PTCP-PRF
We with my friends were having a party at my father's place.
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Dormouse559
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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Dormouse559 »

:fra: French

Mes amis et moi faisions une fête chez mon père.
/me.z‿a.mi e mwa fə.zjɔ̃ yn fɛt ʃe mɔ̃ pɛʁ/
1SG.GEN-PL friend-PL and 1SG.DISJ* do/make-IPF-1PL a-F party at_the_house_of 1SG.GEN-M.SG father.

My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

* disjunctive/disjoint

If you want to include the idea of "with" then:

Je faisais une fête avec mes amis chez mon père.
/ʒə fə.zɛ yn fɛt a.vɛk me.z‿a.mi ʃe mɔ̃ pɛʁ/
1SG.NOM do/make-IPF-1SG a-F party with 1SG.GEN-PL friend-PL at_the_house_of 1SG.GEN-M.SG father.

I was having a party with my friends at my father's place.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Imralu »

:tan: Swahili:

Mimi na rafiki zangu tulikuwa tukifanya karamu [nyumbani] kwa baba yangu.
mimi na rafiki z-angu tu-li-ku-w-a tu-ki-fany-a karamu [nyumba-ni] kw-a baba y-angu
1s COM friend(9/10) 10-GEN.1s 1p-PST-EXT-be-Ø 1p-SIT-do/make-Ø party(9/10) [house-LOC] 17-GEN father(9/10) 9-GEN.1s

My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

Nilikuwa nikifanya karamu [nyumbani] kwa baba yangu pamoja na rafiki zangu.
ni-li-ku-w-a ni-ki-fany-a karamu [nyumba-ni] kw-a baba y-angu pa-moja na rafiki z-angu
1s-PST-EXT-be-Ø 1s-SIT-do/make-Ø party(9/10) [house-LOC] 17-GEN father(9/10) 9-GEN.1s 16-one COM friend(9/10) 10-GEN.1s

I was having a party at my father's place (together) with my friends.

In Swahili, there doesn't seem to be any kind of notion of it being politer to put yourself last. Mimi na rafiki yangu is the only way I found it written, where the English translation always had it around the other way. Nyumbani can be dropped because it's pretty clear from context. Kwa is the class 17 genitive and class 17 is a locative class, so it can kind of function like hos, chez, bei etc.
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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Alessio »

:ita: Italiano
Io e i miei amici siamo a una festa a casa di mio padre.
/'io̯ e i mjεi̯ a'miːtʃi 'sjaːmo a una 'fεːsta a 'kaːza di mjo 'paːdre/
io e i mie-i amic-i s-iamo a una festa a casa di mi-o padre
1SG and DEF.MP my-MP friend-PL be-1PL LOC INDEF.F party LOC house POSS my-MS father


The first decision is mandatory: "Io e i miei amici", literally "I and my friends", is the only way you can express that concept in Italian. I can't think of another incorrect way people would express this (something along the lines of "you and me", which is, by the way, incorrect in Italian as well).

As for the second decision: I went for "at my father's house", but I could also say "by my father" (da mio padre) which pretty much has the same meaning. I'm not sure why, but my ear tells me the first version suits this sentence better.

I might add a Hecathver version once I can make both decisions. I've been working on the language for 5 years without ever coming across this kind of sentence.
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Iyionaku »

:chn: Mandarin

我和我的朋友在我的爸爸的房子里庆祝。
Wǒ hé wǒ de péngyǒu zài wǒ de bàba de fángzi lǐ qìngzhù.
[ʊ̯ɔ˨˩ xə˨˦ ʊ̯ɔ˨˩ tə pʰə̆ŋ˨˦ˈjɔʊ̯˨˩ t͡saɪ̯˥˩ ʊ̯ɔ˨˩ tə ˈpa˥˩pa tə faŋ˨˦t͡sɹ̩ li˨˩ ͡tɕiᵊŋ˥˩ˈ͡tʂu˥˩]
1SG with 1SG GEN friend at 1SG GEN father GEN house inside celebrate
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

This translation is rather free I guess, but I didn't dare make any experiments. If this one is correct I will be satisfied.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Iyionaku »

Creyeditor wrote::deu: German
Wir, also ich und mein-e Freunde, hab-en bei mein-em Vater ge-feier-t.
1PL.NOM thus 1SG.NOM and 1SG.POSS-PL.NOM AUX.PRF-1PL.PRS.IND at 1SG.POSS-SG.DAT father PTCP.PRF-to.have.a.party-PTCP-PRF
We with my friends were having a party at my father's place.
Alternative German translation(s):

Meine Freunde und ich haben eine Party im Haus meines Vaters gefeiert.
1SG.POSS-PL.NOM friend-PL and 1SG.NOM AUX.PST.1PL INDEF.FEM.ACC party in=DEF house 1SG.POSS-MASC.GEN father.GEN celebrate.PP
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place

As in English, it's stylistically prohibited to say "Ich und meine Freunde". There is a proverb in German to emphasize it: "Der Esel nennt sich immer zuerst!" - The donkey always calls itself at first!

If I and my friends were only invited to a party my father hosted, but were not the hosts ourselves, one would rather say:

Meine Freunde und ich waren auf einer Party bei meinem Vater.
1SG.POSS-PL.NOM friend-PL and 1SG.NOM COP.PRET.1PL on INDEF.FEM.DAT party at 1SG.POSS-MASC.DAT father
My friends and I attended a party of my father.

Note a few things:

1. "auf einer Party sein" is only used when you are attending a party. If you are host or important participant, you use "eine Party feiern" or "eine Party veranstalten" instead.
2. "Party" is a loanword and adjusted to German grammar. Hence, the plural is not "Parties" (although you can read that sometimes), but "Partys".
3. You are "on top of a party" for some reason, i.e. you use the preposition "auf". That generally applies for all kinds of events.
4. The copula "sein" is one of the very few verbs that are used with the preterite in colloquial Southern German (I think Creyeditor mentioned once that it's way more frequent in colloquial Northern German). In the first sentence, "feiern" has to be in perfect tense due to that.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Yélian

Reo ifren è re vutret, ren yipraletest pun pilat reʻo pèno.
[ˈɾe.o ˈirən ɛ ɾə ˈvutɾət, ɾən ɕɨpɾɐˈleːtəs‿pʉn ˈpiːlɐt ˈɾeʔo ˈpɛno]
1SG.POSS friend.PL and 1SG.REC INT, 1PLEX.REC PST-party-1PLEX in house 1SG.POSS-GEN father
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

:con: Caelian

Rar hivaruhin Rabyer vportëmin bonnokyapëm Rabyem sipyurelit.
[rah hivaruˈhin raˈbʲɛɾ p̪ɔɾtʰəˈmin bɔnɔkʲaˈpʰəm raˈbʲɛm ʒipʲurɛˈlit]
1SG.NOM friend.PL.COM 1SG.GEN-COM house.ADE father.POSS-ADE 1SG.GEN-ADE PST-party.1PLEX>3SG
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.

[Very nice example for extensive suffixaufnahme!]

:con: Ular

我和朋团得]我的爸的砖寮在䋍做有咱。
Lăn phān lhár mōng tā lăn pō tâ pō wũlpál phū làwlhù jú lár.

1SG COM friend PL TOP 1SG GEN father GEN house at party PST 1PL
My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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Re: We with my friends at my father's place

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Paatherye

शोकु कुं नेयेर खीड़र षीगी़ शूति नौतु पितेरतुर धामर.
Ēku kum neyer khīrar șīgīn ūti neytu pitertur dhāmar.
[ˈeːku kum ˈnejeɾ ˈkʰiːraɾ ʃiːˈɣiːn ˈuːti ˈnei̯tu piˈteɾtuɾ ˈθaːmaɾ] (standard pronunciation)
[ok kʊm naʊ̯ɾ xiːɾ ˈʃiːgɪn ut naʊ̯t ˈpiɾtəɾ ˈdaməɾ] (colloquial pronunciation)
1SG.NOM with 1SG.POSS>PL.DAT party.IPF.1PL in 1SG.POSS>MASC.GEN father.GEN house.LOC

My friends and I were having a party at my father's place.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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