/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
Yay or Nay?
Re: Yay or Nay?
Re: Yay or Nay?
I’d go with Denê since I think it’s the most likely to get an English speaker to give you the best approximate pronunciation. With the circumflex over the e, I don’t think you’ll get a lot of people saying /din/.elemtilas wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 01:08/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
With Daine, I personally have a tendency to pronounce things as much as like the IPA as possible in the context of conlangs.
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Re: Yay or Nay?
I would say, don’t worry about it, since the chances are low that you’ll have to listen to someone else read it out loud.
When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.
When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
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Re: Yay or Nay?
Hmm, personally, I've always pronounced "Daine" as /dai.ne/. "Denê" certainly seems to be the more transparent form, as far as pronunciation is concerned. But why not use both, as appropriate? English already handles things like Latin plurals.elemtilas wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 01:08/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
Re: Yay or Nay?
Of course, I know you're right about I'll not likely ever have to hear it read aloud. But, it's an old issue for me all the same (and those few who have long known about them do in fact use the spelling pronunciation /den/).eldin raigmore wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 03:14 I would say, don’t worry about it, since the chances are low that you’ll have to listen to someone else read it out loud.
When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.
And no worries about any of this ever being made into a screenplay or anything of the sort.
However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Last edited by elemtilas on 08 Jul 2019 04:29, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Yay or Nay?
Oh, well! Not too far off, then!Dormouse559 wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 03:26Hmm, personally, I've always pronounced "Daine" as /dai.ne/. "Denê" certainly seems to be the more transparent form, as far as pronunciation is concerned. But why not use both, as appropriate? English already handles things like Latin plurals.
Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?
Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. Even though I know it's supposed to be there!spanick wrote:I’d go with Denê since I think it’s the most likely to get an English speaker to give you the best approximate pronunciation. With the circumflex over the e, I don’t think you’ll get a lot of people saying /din/.
With Daine, I personally have a tendency to pronounce things as much as like the IPA as possible in the context of conlangs.
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Re: Yay or Nay?
Oh, I see!Dormouse559 wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 04:53I suppose I got the impression that "Daine" was a singular. It is pronounced like how I'd expect "Tana" to be. But reading over your post again, I see that isn't what you said.
There have been instances where I've used Tana to describe an individual. And (incongruously) Daine for the race / species name.
Re: Yay or Nay?
Lol well that muddies the waters a bit. If you don’t pronounce the final e and are comfortable with other not doing so either, then Daine works, because I think a lot of English speakers will pronounce it /deɪn/, which is kinda close...-ish.
Re: Yay or Nay?
I ám trying to train myself!
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Re: Yay or Nay?
Then I say “Good for you!”. Where is your pronunciation guide available online for your fans or alpha-testers or beta-testers to refer to?elemtilas wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 04:20 .... However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Yay or Nay?
Oh! I sent him a copy of the pronunciation guide and appended it to the end of the text. I'll copy it here, since you're interested:eldin raigmore wrote: ↑09 Jul 2019 00:22Then I say “Good for you!”. Where is your pronunciation guide available online for your fans or alpha-testers or beta-testers to refer to?elemtilas wrote: ↑08 Jul 2019 04:20 .... However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Pronounciation Guide
All words are given their pronunciations using the International Phonetic Alphabet.
Adani /a.dɑ.ni/
Andavaste /a.ndɑ.va.stɛ/
Arranderran /a.rɑ.nde.rɑn/
Bolgar /bol.gæɹ/
Camay /kɑ.mɑi/
Daine /de.ne/ (in Engl., usually /deːn/)
Elckô /ɛl.koː/
gorhyun /goɹ.jun/
Harval /hɑɹ.vɒl/
Lindetirio /lɪnd.ɛ.ti.ri.o/
Kaproyes /kɐ.pɹo.jɛz/
Narutanea /na.ru.tɑ.nɛ.ja/
Queranarran /kwɛ.rɑ.nɑ.rɑn/
Rûrofal /ruː.ro.fɑl/
Tanari /tɑ.nɑ.ri/
Tawaste /tɑ.wɑ.ste/
Varrelen /va.rɛ.lɛn/
Weyagni /vwei.ɐ.gni/
Wolquoyes /wol.kwoj.es/
Yaviê /jɑ.vi.eː/
Yeola /jo.lɑ/
yndori /ɨ.ndo.ri/
Zenorgaia /zɛn.oɹ.ga.ja/
Zenosia /zɛ.nos.i.ɛ/
All words are given their pronunciations using the International Phonetic Alphabet.
Adani /a.dɑ.ni/
Andavaste /a.ndɑ.va.stɛ/
Arranderran /a.rɑ.nde.rɑn/
Bolgar /bol.gæɹ/
Camay /kɑ.mɑi/
Daine /de.ne/ (in Engl., usually /deːn/)
Elckô /ɛl.koː/
gorhyun /goɹ.jun/
Harval /hɑɹ.vɒl/
Lindetirio /lɪnd.ɛ.ti.ri.o/
Kaproyes /kɐ.pɹo.jɛz/
Narutanea /na.ru.tɑ.nɛ.ja/
Queranarran /kwɛ.rɑ.nɑ.rɑn/
Rûrofal /ruː.ro.fɑl/
Tanari /tɑ.nɑ.ri/
Tawaste /tɑ.wɑ.ste/
Varrelen /va.rɛ.lɛn/
Weyagni /vwei.ɐ.gni/
Wolquoyes /wol.kwoj.es/
Yaviê /jɑ.vi.eː/
Yeola /jo.lɑ/
yndori /ɨ.ndo.ri/
Zenorgaia /zɛn.oɹ.ga.ja/
Zenosia /zɛ.nos.i.ɛ/
Re: Yay or Nay?
What about n > ɴ _{q, χ}, and then ɴ > ɦ?
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Re: Yay or Nay?
Initial vowel system:
/i i: ɨ ɨ: u/
/e e: ə ɵ o o:~u:/
/æ a: ɑ/
Harmony:
/i i e e æ ɵ/ vs /ɨ e ə æ ɑ o/
Is it possible that:
ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
/i i: ɨ ɨ: u/
/e e: ə ɵ o o:~u:/
/æ a: ɑ/
Harmony:
/i i e e æ ɵ/ vs /ɨ e ə æ ɑ o/
Is it possible that:
ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
Re: Yay or Nay?
I'll answer this. Most of these changes seem "reasonable" to me, as vowels can literally do almost anything (compared to consonants at least.) Generally though, vowels are motivated by chain shifts: movement in one area of the vowel space can cause movement of others. Nonetheless, none of this looks unreasonable, except perhaps the lower vowel space would seem crowded with /æː/, /aː/ and /ɒː/ with what you already have (but again, vowels do not need to be perfectly aligned.)Is it possible that:
ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
Should I delete word final schwa in my Crimean Gothic conlang?
A bit of background: the Crimean Gothic language (not the conlang) had likely reduce most of Biblical Gothic's unstressed vowels to schwa (to the point were the former can be derived from the latter) by the 16th century. Currently, I keep schwa and write it as <ъ>. An exception to this is the combination /jə/, which is written with the "small yer" <ь>.
Now, I want to innovate an allophonic soft-hard contrast, sort of like in Russian, mostly under influence from Russian through its loanwords. This would be a fairly recent change in the language, perhaps only two centuries ago, around the same time I plan to delete schwa. Besides loanwords, I could also palatalize consonants preceding schwa if there is a /j/ phoneme between them: an example of this kind of word is the name for the peninsula itself, кримь (currently: [ˈkʰrimjə]) to [ˈkʰriːmʲ] with deletion of the schwa and glide, and palatalization of the previous consonant. Someone in discord remarked that this is fairly similar to the state of affairs in Romanian, which I like because Romania is a close neighbor of Crimea and the Ukraine.
I am somewhat worried though this would ruin some of my grammar, as currently the strong feminine and neuter stems are distinguished in number and partially case by a final schwa (there written <е> as I haven't updated it to reflect the change to yer), though I suspect voicing might still be a distinguishing feature, at least among plosives.
So what do we think? Kill the schwa?
Re: Yay or Nay?
Ælfwine wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019 02:42I'll answer this. Most of these changes seem "reasonable" to me, as vowels can literally do almost anything (compared to consonants at least.) Generally though, vowels are motivated by chain shifts: movement in one area of the vowel space can cause movement of others. Nonetheless, none of this looks unreasonable, except perhaps the lower vowel space would seem crowded with /æː/, /aː/ and /ɒː/ with what you already have (but again, vowels do not need to be perfectly aligned.)Is it possible that:
ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
Should I delete word final schwa in my Crimean Gothic conlang?
A bit of background: the Crimean Gothic language (not the conlang) had likely reduce most of Biblical Gothic's unstressed vowels to schwa (to the point were the former can be derived from the latter) by the 16th century. Currently, I keep schwa and write it as <ъ>. An exception to this is the combination /jə/, which is written with the "small yer" <ь>.
Now, I want to innovate an allophonic soft-hard contrast, sort of like in Russian, mostly under influence from Russian through its loanwords. This would be a fairly recent change in the language, perhaps only two centuries ago, around the same time I plan to delete schwa. Besides loanwords, I could also palatalize consonants preceding schwa if there is a /j/ phoneme between them: an example of this kind of word is the name for the peninsula itself, кримь (currently: [ˈkʰrimjə]) to [ˈkʰriːmʲ] with deletion of the schwa and glide, and palatalization of the previous consonant. Someone in discord remarked that this is fairly similar to the state of affairs in Romanian, which I like because Romania is a close neighbor of Crimea and the Ukraine.
I am somewhat worried though this would ruin some of my grammar, as currently the strong feminine and neuter stems are distinguished in number and partially case by a final schwa (there written <е> as I haven't updated it to reflect the change to yer), though I suspect voicing might still be a distinguishing feature, at least among plosives.
So what do we think? Kill the schwa?
i have two questions:
1) does the schwa occur only word-finally? If it occurs elsewhere, would you also delete it there?
2) Does this language allophonically palatalize all vowels before /i/? Ive heard it said that that's how Romanian got the way it did, but it may not be necessary to do this if your language already has preexisting /jə/ sequences.
Makapappi nauppakiba.
The wolf-sheep ate itself. (Play)
The wolf-sheep ate itself. (Play)
Re: Yay or Nay?
1.) Schwa can occur elsewhere, yes.Pabappa wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019 04:55 i have two questions:
1) does the schwa occur only word-finally? If it occurs elsewhere, would you also delete it there?
2) Does this language allophonically palatalize all vowels before /i/? Ive heard it said that that's how Romanian got the way it did, but it may not be necessary to do this if your language already has preexisting /jə/ sequences.
2.) I've thought of doing this, though its worth mentioning /i/ is rare in an unstressed or final syllable. Furthermore, both /jə/ and /i/ would not carry any grammatical significance, unlike Romanian, but Russian and Ukrainian loanwords would make it more common. It seems to be an areal feature, as Crimean Tatar seems to be picking up palatalization as well.
Re: Yay or Nay?
Is this plausible?
qk > qʞ > ʛ > ʕ or something like that?
qk > qʞ > ʛ > ʕ or something like that?