(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Perhaps there was a vowel shift. the "short O" vowel before a tautosyllabic /l/ is typically spelled a, as in all, ball, thrall, etc. (I have caught/cot merged so I dont know offhand which one it is.) Perhaps words like troll, poll, knoll, etc once had a short O but are now merged with the long O and so that vowel now can be spelled with either one or two L's following.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Well, at least *I* count it.eldin raigmore wrote: ↑14 Mar 2020 23:22 @Khemehekis:
“Maxxinista” is proper-noun-derived, so I wouldn’t want to count it.
A couple of years ago, I answered this question on Quora:“Beta-buxxer” is new to me!
https://www.quora.com/What-comes-to-min ... -name-Chad
Then a month ago, I got this A2A in my Quora digest in my email box:
https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-mean ... you-a-Chad
I learned what a beta-buxxer was from there.
I would guess the "beta" part comes because they're beta males, with Chads being the alpha males. And I would guess the "buxxer" part comes from "bucks", since the main thing beta-buxxers offer to women is that they are providers, not that they are hot or provide great sex.What’s its etymology, if you know?
"Bucks" has a CKS, and "buxxer" may look less odd than "buckser" to some people.
Khemehekis:
The accented vowel in “patrolled” and “patrolling” is long, not short!
Why aren’t they spelled “patroled” and “patroling”?
Sim for “controled” and “controling”?
It's (accented or only syllable) consonant-vowel-consonant that seems to be the rule.
Of course, the norm in English is that the last vowel letter in a word, if it has at least one consonant but no other vowels after it, and is not part of a digraph, trigraph, or quadrigraph (like in "sign", "high", "sight", and "Hugh"), will be short. ("Be", "hi", "go", etc. are long, as are "cane", "say", "claim", "sundae", and "shillelagh", but not "car", "man", "bland", "last" or "schmaltz".) Think of how few words that have A as the last vowel pronounce it /ei/, except in dialects (like mine) wherein -ang and -ank words (hang, bang, spank, bank, Frank, orangutan, etc.) have /ei/. All I can think of are "a", the letter A, "bass", the surname of Colbie Caillat, and some pronunciations of "Croat" (so that it sounds like "Croatian").
There are exceptions, though: you have the -ild words (child, wild, mild), the -ind words (find, blind, mind, rewind), the -old words (old, cold, gold, told, sold, fold, bold, mold, hold), the -ost words (ghost, most, host, Yost, almost, post), pint, Christ, climb, bass, indict, Job, comb, the -ol(l) words (roll, poll, toll, boll, enroll/enrol, control, patrol), the -on't words (don't, won't), gross, and the -olt words (bolt, molt, Holt, colt, dolt). "Control" and "patrol" just happen to follow one of these patterns, although for reasons I'm unaware of, they don't double the L in English the way "roll" and "poll" do.
Then, of course, plurals of words ending in long vowels can have a similar effect: apostrophes, similes, hi's, mangos, pianos, tacos, flus, parvenus, and flybys all have the last vowel letter a long one.
Of course, in languages without the Great Vowel Shift, the vowels usually go something like /a/, /e/, /i/, /o/, /u/. As a result of this, English borrowed many words in the last few centuries wherein O made an /ou/ sound and U made an /u/ sound, and kept the pronunciation. So we have words like "yod(h)", "Vladivostok", "Rom" (as in Roma), "Carlos", "adios", "skosh", "Igorot", "Likud", "Marduk", "suq", "kun", "on" (like the kanji reading), "om", "qoph", "pfeffernuss", "Havmu-suv", "Vaduz", "cul(-de-sac)" (/kyl/ in French!), and "cogito ergo sum".
Finally, there're "sosh" and "fav", which rhyme with "gauche" and "save", not "Josh" and "Trav", because they are twentieth-century apocopations of words ("socialite" and "favorite") in which the O and A followed the normal rules.
So, the short answer is that the normal rules for VAC words conflict in this case with the normal rules for when vowels are short or long.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 89,000 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 89,000 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Yes, that's why I said "in general". Although in these cases, I'd argue that the statement actually kind of holds: the single <c> in "tic" and "soc" is pronounced /k/, and the doubled <cc> in the suffixed forms is... also pronounced /k/. If anything, this would seem to be more evidence that the rule of doubling stem-final consonants before suffixes if the preceding vowel is short is spreading to affect new letters. And as is usually the case, the doubling of the consonant in such situations has no effect on its actual pronunciation. It's just in opposition to the more general rule of how <c> (or <cc>) is pronounced before front vowels - which in turn is an exception to the more general rule of a doubled consonant letter being pronounced the same as a single one.Khemehekis wrote: ↑14 Mar 2020 23:55Doubling a letter can do weird things. Normally C is pronounced /s/ before E, I, or Y, but when you double the C in "tic" or "soc", you get "ticcing" or "soccer", which are pronounced /k/.
That is, the normal pronunciation of <c> before a front vowel is /s/, but that of <cc> (as in "vaccine", for instance) is /ks/. However, for word-final <c> it's /k/, and a stem-final <c> doubled before a suffix follows the same rule as any other doubled consonant, namely pronunciation stays unchanged.
The letter <g> displays similar behavior. Then there's <s>, which is often (though not regularly) /z/ between vowels, but almost always (although again, not quite regularly) /s/ when doubled. And no doubt some other weird stuff happens in a few words somewhere. But again, in general, I do think that's pretty much it.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Exactly. With a few exceptions, doubling is just a rule about preceding vowels.Xonen wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 01:40Yes, that's why I said "in general". Although in these cases, I'd argue that the statement actually kind of holds: the single <c> in "tic" and "soc" is pronounced /k/, and the doubled <cc> in the suffixed forms is... also pronounced /k/. The doubling itself has no effect on the pronunciation.Khemehekis wrote: ↑14 Mar 2020 23:55Doubling a letter can do weird things. Normally C is pronounced /s/ before E, I, or Y, but when you double the C in "tic" or "soc", you get "ticcing" or "soccer", which are pronounced /k/.
Yes, I'd emphasise here that most orthographic rules operate on stems, and ignore suffixes like -ed, -es, -ing, -er, etc. The doubling of intervocalic consonants after a short vowel is one of the few exceptions, and even then it's not entirely regular, with Americans often failing to double the consonant.
That is, the normal pronunciation of <c> before a front vowel is /s/, but that of <cc> (as in "vaccine", for instance) is /ks/. However, for word-final <c> it's /k/, and a stem-final <c> doubled before a suffix follows the same rule as any other doubled consonant, namely pronunciation stays unchanged.
"Soccer" is actually an interesting word in this respect. The original word, "association", has <c> = /s/; but the abbreviation, "assoc.", has this hardened to /k/, not because of any phonological rule, but because of the orthographic rule (<c> is /k/ unless followed by a front vowel). And the suffix -er fails to change this, because it's external to the stem, but still triggers doubling (because it's one of the most basic rules).
All of which goes to show: English speakers have a high level of understanding of, and fidelity to, English spelling rules, even if not consciously, and spelling reformers often underestimate this!
I wouldn't treat 'vaccine' and similar words as examples of consonant doubling, by the way. I'd treat it as a cluster that just happens to look like a doubled consonant. Unfortunately, /k/ is <c> before consonants, and <c> is /s/ before front vowels, which means that /ks/ clusters can end up as <cc> through coincidence (or sometimes <cs>, or of course <x>, or <xc>, or...).
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
FWIW, 'troll' and 'knoll' still have 'short O'; 'poll' can have either long or short, depending on meaning. [to /pQl/ = to cut the horns, head or branches off; to /poUl/ = to survey].Pabappa wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 00:25 Perhaps there was a vowel shift. the "short O" vowel before a tautosyllabic /l/ is typically spelled a, as in all, ball, thrall, etc. (I have caught/cot merged so I dont know offhand which one it is.) Perhaps words like troll, poll, knoll, etc once had a short O but are now merged with the long O and so that vowel now can be spelled with either one or two L's following.
Meanwhile, 'all, ball thrall' all have a distinctly 'long O', although not the same long O as poll=survey.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
You're making this way more complicated that in needs to be. It's not about being the 'last vowel', it's just that the 'magic e' makes the preceding single consonant intervocalic. The same rules apply to non-last vowels. The exceptions are usually unstressed vowels, or vowels (usually in Latinisms) reduced through trisyllabic laxing.Khemehekis wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 00:40
Of course, the norm in English is that the last vowel letter in a word, if it has at least one consonant but no other vowels after it, and is not part of a digraph, trigraph, or quadrigraph (like in "sign", "high", "sight", and "Hugh"), will be short. ("Be", "hi", "go", etc. are long, as are "cane", "say", "claim", "sundae", and "shillelagh", but not "car", "man", "bland", "last" or "schmaltz".) Think of how few words that have A as the last vowel pronounce it /ei/, except in dialects (like mine) wherein -ang and -ank words (hang, bang, spank, bank, Frank, orangutan, etc.) have /ei/. All I can think of are "a", the letter A, "bass", the surname of Colbie Caillat, and some pronunciations of "Croat" (so that it sounds like "Croatian").
Oh, and because the rules stumble over suffixes, certain suffixes are usually (but irregularly) ignored for this purposes, like -ic. (hence path-E-tic, not path-ee-tic) - as though the stem were "pathet".
One issure here is that some -VlC clusters resulted in vowel lengthening, and this also includes some -ll clusters."Control" and "patrol" just happen to follow one of these patterns, although for reasons I'm unaware of, they don't double the L in English the way "roll" and "poll" do.
Regarding 'control' and 'patrol': both words used to have <ll> in them, but seem to have had the double reduced, probably by hyper-applying the 'double consonant when you add the suffix' rule. [i.e. "controlling : controll" > "controlling : control" > "controling : control"]
Then, of course, plurals of words ending in long vowels can have a similar effect: apostrophes, similes, hi's, mangos, pianos, tacos, flus, parvenus, and flybys all have the last vowel letter a long one.
. I've never encountered "sosh", but I'd pronounce both those words with short vowels. There is a word with the long A, but it's spelled "fave".Finally, there're "sosh" and "fav", which rhyme with "gauche" and "save", not "Josh" and "Trav", because they are twentieth-century apocopations of words ("socialite" and "favorite") in which the O and A followed the normal rules.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
That might be a better way to put it.Salmoneus wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 02:24You're making this way more complicated that in needs to be. It's not about being the 'last vowel', it's just that the 'magic e' makes the preceding single consonant intervocalic. The same rules apply to non-last vowels. The exceptions are usually unstressed vowels, or vowels (usually in Latinisms) reduced through trisyllabic laxing.Khemehekis wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 00:40
Of course, the norm in English is that the last vowel letter in a word, if it has at least one consonant but no other vowels after it, and is not part of a digraph, trigraph, or quadrigraph (like in "sign", "high", "sight", and "Hugh"), will be short. ("Be", "hi", "go", etc. are long, as are "cane", "say", "claim", "sundae", and "shillelagh", but not "car", "man", "bland", "last" or "schmaltz".) Think of how few words that have A as the last vowel pronounce it /ei/, except in dialects (like mine) wherein -ang and -ank words (hang, bang, spank, bank, Frank, orangutan, etc.) have /ei/. All I can think of are "a", the letter A, "bass", the surname of Colbie Caillat, and some pronunciations of "Croat" (so that it sounds like "Croatian").
Of course, the A remains long in the -ange words (range, arrange, change, strange, mange -- but not flange or Ange!) -- and the -aste words (waste, taste, paste, haste, chaste, baste). Also in "ache" (which as a noun used to be pronounced like "aitch" and as a verb used to be spelt "ake").
I never knew that! So that's why words like "child", "cold", and "bolt" have long vowels despite their E-lessness?One issure here is that some -VlC clusters resulted in vowel lengthening, and this also includes some -ll clusters."Control" and "patrol" just happen to follow one of these patterns, although for reasons I'm unaware of, they don't double the L in English the way "roll" and "poll" do.
Regarding 'control' and 'patrol': both words used to have <ll> in them, but seem to have had the double reduced, probably by hyper-applying the 'double consonant when you add the suffix' rule. [i.e. "controlling : controll" > "controlling : control" > "controling : control"]
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ember-2018. I've never encountered "sosh", but I'd pronounce both those words with short vowels. There is a word with the long A, but it's spelled "fave".Finally, there're "sosh" and "fav", which rhyme with "gauche" and "save", not "Josh" and "Trav", because they are twentieth-century apocopations of words ("socialite" and "favorite") in which the O and A followed the normal rules.
All of which goes to show: English speakers have a high level of understanding of, and fidelity to, English spelling rules, even if not consciously, and spelling reformers often underestimate this!
♂♥♂♀
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 89,000 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 89,000 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Yes, some clusters seem to act like single consonants in old words - so <st> has a preceding short vowel when final, but sometimes a long vowel before a vowel.Khemehekis wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 02:38
Of course, the A remains long in the -ange words (range, arrange, change, strange, mange -- but not flange or Ange!) -- and the -aste words (waste, taste, paste, haste, chaste, baste). Also in "ache" (which as a noun used to be pronounced like "aitch" and as a verb used to be spelt "ake").
I think so, yes; likewise -nC clusters and -rC clusters, although all the rules around rhotics have messed up the last category. [and likewise some -lC words, where the /l/ ended up a vowel]
I never knew that! So that's why words like "child", "cold", and "bolt" have long vowels despite their E-lessness?
Although "bolt" has a short vowel. Like holt, colt, dolt and molt.
[Oh, and for me of course there's also a bunch of issues with clusters like -sC when they follow <a>. So, /plAst@/ (plaster) but /pl{stIk/ (plastic), but /peIst/ (paste)...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ember-2018. I've never encountered "sosh", but I'd pronounce both those words with short vowels. There is a word with the long A, but it's spelled "fave".Finally, there're "sosh" and "fav", which rhyme with "gauche" and "save", not "Josh" and "Trav", because they are twentieth-century apocopations of words ("socialite" and "favorite") in which the O and A followed the normal rules.
[/quote]
That article links to the dictionary entry... which spells it 'fave'. It just notes 'fav' as a less common spelling variant sometimes found.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Interesting! Are there any processes that covered which consonant clusters acted like single consonants and which didn't?Salmoneus wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 02:48Yes, some clusters seem to act like single consonants in old words - so <st> has a preceding short vowel when final, but sometimes a long vowel before a vowel.Khemehekis wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 02:38
Of course, the A remains long in the -ange words (range, arrange, change, strange, mange -- but not flange or Ange!) -- and the -aste words (waste, taste, paste, haste, chaste, baste). Also in "ache" (which as a noun used to be pronounced like "aitch" and as a verb used to be spelt "ake").
You mean words with silent L, like "walk", "folk", and "half"? Or, perhaps, words like "child", "wild", and "mild", in which a schwa developed before the /l/?I think so, yes; likewise -nC clusters and -rC clusters, although all the rules around rhotics have messed up the last category. [and likewise some -lC words, where the /l/ ended up a vowel]I never knew that! So that's why words like "child", "cold", and "bolt" have long vowels despite their E-lessness?
Wow, I pronounce those words just like "bold", "hold", "cold", "doled", and "mold", except with a /t/ (phonetically a glottal stop) instead of a /d/ at the end, respectively. Are the short vowel pronunciations the standard British pronunciation for -olt words? (I was surprised about "squirrel" the other day, so . . .)Although "bolt" has a short vowel. Like holt, colt, dolt and molt.
If "fave" is more common, that certainly attests to the intuitive grasp English speakers have of our spelling rules. Similarly, we have both "mic" (true to the spelling) and "mike" (true to the pronunciation) for the apocopation of "microphone".That article links to the dictionary entry... which spells it 'fave'. It just notes 'fav' as a less common spelling variant sometimes found.https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ember-2018. I've never encountered "sosh", but I'd pronounce both those words with short vowels. There is a word with the long A, but it's spelled "fave".Finally, there're "sosh" and "fav", which rhyme with "gauche" and "save", not "Josh" and "Trav", because they are twentieth-century apocopations of words ("socialite" and "favorite") in which the O and A followed the normal rules.
Although this rapper seems not to grasp English spelling too well . . .
Last edited by Khemehekis on 15 Mar 2020 04:14, edited 3 times in total.
♂♥♂♀
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 89,000 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 89,000 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
i was using the schoolboy definitions of short vowels there, i meant they were phonologically lax. not that they were of longer duration, which is not contrastive in most AmEng dialects and which i had in fact forgotten about when i made that post. sorry if any confusion. but the words "troll, poll" etc are almost certainly pronounced with /o/ of some duration by all American dialcets.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
For what it's worth, the entries for dolt and molt on Wiktionary seem to distinguish the "UK" pronunciation, which has the short vowel, from both RP and the US, which have the long one. Seems to me it would make more sense to list RP as a(n obsolete or at least archaic) variant under the UK, but what do I know... The other words in that list just typically have both pronunciations listed, although for some it's noted that only the long vowel occurs in the US.Khemehekis wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 03:09Wow, I pronounce those words just like "bold", "hold", "cold", "doled", and "mold", except with a /t/ (phonetically a glottal stop) instead of a /d/ at the end, respectively. Are the short vowel pronunciations the standard British pronunciation for -olt words?Although "bolt" has a short vowel. Like holt, colt, dolt and molt.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I don't know. I think it's only an orthographic decision about how to represent a long vowel before certain consonant clusters, rather than a phonological thing. In Ye Olden Dayes, there was a lot more use of the 'treat clusters as single consonants that you can 'shorten' with a following silent E' rule, often including double marking of length. Over time, spellings settled on one method or another, on seemingly a word-by-word basis. So what would have been often spelled as "wayste" or "waiste" is now spelled either "waste" or "waist", depending on meaning.Khemehekis wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020 03:09
Interesting! Are there any processes that covered which consonant clusters acted like single consonants and which didn't?
I meant words with alC sequences, which typically have O rather than A pronunciations (and no /l/ at all), and often short (salt, falcon, etc). "Almond" used to have O as well, although it's usually been regularised to a long A. ('salmon' isn't a counterexample, because it never had /l/ in the first place, that's just a 'corrected' spelling like the 'b' in 'debt' and the 's' in 'island').You mean words with silent L, like "walk", "folk", and "half"? Or, perhaps, words like "child", "wild", and "mild", in which a schwa developed before the /l/?I think so, yes; likewise -nC clusters and -rC clusters, although all the rules around rhotics have messed up the last category. [and likewise some -lC words, where the /l/ ended up a vowel]I never knew that! So that's why words like "child", "cold", and "bolt" have long vowels despite their E-lessness?
Errr... I don't really know what 'standard British' is, to be honest. Those words were mostly long in RP, but in SSBE they're mostly short. I sometimes have a long vowel in 'molt', and maybe occasionally in 'bolt' (i think it would always be short when talking of a bolt as in a lock, but might be long for 'bolt' as in flee, sometimes). This is presumably associated with the shortening of words like 'salt' and 'falcon', and may be associated with the more general (but rather unpredictable) shorting of BATH vowels in certain words, all of which have been going on at the same time, and are not yet complete.Wow, I pronounce those words just like "bold", "hold", "cold", "doled", and "mold", except with a /t/ (phonetically a glottal stop) instead of a /d/ at the end, respectively. Are the short vowel pronunciations the standard British pronunciation for -olt words? (I was surprised about "squirrel" the other day, so . . .)Although "bolt" has a short vowel. Like holt, colt, dolt and molt.
I'm not sure how these words work in dialects outside of the South, though.
/fl{v@ fl{v/? Yes, I always assumed in his case it was some sort of AAVE issue.
Although this rapper seems not to grasp English spelling too well . . .
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Wow!
My “short question” inspired plenty of answer!
Thanks, all! I’ll keep following!
My “short question” inspired plenty of answer!
Thanks, all! I’ll keep following!
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
When an umlauted letter "ü" is spelled out as a digraph sans the diaeresis "ue", would that still be called "transliteration" or is there another term for it ("transcription", maybe)? Just wondering.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Transliteration is, in its strict sense, an accurate rendition of a script letter by letter (or grapheme by grapheme, if you prefer). For example, Arabic خمس ست سبع 'five six seven' could be transliterated as "xms st sbʕ".KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: ↑17 Mar 2020 21:20When an umlauted letter "ü" is spelled out as a digraph sans the diaeresis "ue", would that still be called "transliteration" or is there another term for it ("transcription", maybe)? Just wondering.
Converting a language into the Latin alphabet in linguistics, often combining a transliteration with pronunciation in a slightly ad hoc manner, is properly referred to as doing a romanization. There are standardized romanizations for many languages in existence, but they're often not followed in actual works. That Arabic example could be romanized as "xamsun sittun sabʕun". In practice, people in language teaching/learning and conlanging circles sometimes refer to romanizations as "transliterations".
A transcription may refer to a transliteration (when transcribing an old engraving, say), a romanization, writing down something in a standard or altered orthography, or writing down the pronunciation of something with a system like the IPA or Americanist notation. Transcriptions of the sound [ˈxæmsʊn ˈsɪtːʊn ˈsæbʕʊn] could be "khamsun sittun sab`un", "خمس ست سبع", or "خَمْسٌ سِتًٌ سَبْعٌ" (with vowel diacritics), or /xamsun sit:un sabʕun/ (or the [ˈxæm...] equivalent).
I'd say adapting <ü> as <ue> due to limitations with diacritics or the availability of reasonable input methods is called "it's 2020, why can't I input some damn basic letter from the second Latin Unicode block, English is not the only language in the world, this is an OUTRAGE".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Wikipedia has this to say:KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: ↑17 Mar 2020 21:20 When an umlauted letter "ü" is spelled out as a digraph sans the diaeresis "ue", would that still be called "transliteration" or is there another term for it ("transcription", maybe)? Just wondering.
"When it is not possible to use the umlauts (for example, when using a restricted character set) the characters Ä, Ö, Ü, ä, ö, ü should be transcribed as Ae, Oe, Ue, ae, oe, ue respectively, following the earlier postvocalic-e convention; simply using the base vowel (e.g. u instead of ü) would be wrong and misleading."
That would suggest "transcription" which also "the systematic representation of language in written form" (so, vaguely, "writing something down"), as distinct from "orthographic transcription" (writing a spoken word from one language using the orthography of another), and "transliteration" (converting one script into another).
I'd think transcription should work, although at least in the case of ü ~ ue, that's just a case of alternatives within an orthographic convention, i.e. they both represent the same sounds, but ue is written when ü is unavailable for use. In this case I'd guess "X can be alternatively written as Y".
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Thank you guys. I wanted to know after a friend asked me a question about it. He's reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and took note of some German names in the book that seem to employ both strategies, e.g. "Bürgerbräukeller" written as "Buergerbräukeller". I assumed that was just a typo.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Names are written like parents decide hey are written. Steven and Stephen thing.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: ↑19 Mar 2020 03:45 Thank you guys. I wanted to know after a friend asked me a question about it. He's reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and took note of some German names in the book that seem to employ both strategies, e.g. "Bürgerbräukeller" written as "Buergerbräukeller". I assumed that was just a typo.
The name of the famous author is Goethe, not Göte.
But names are also transcribed very oddly sometimes. Even in one book there can be different versions.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Well, strictly speaking, I don't think his parents decided on the spelling of their surname – although I suppose they might have, depending on how established the spelling was at the time. However, the Bürgerbräukeller wasn't a person (although no doubt someone's tried to name their daughter after it), and its... "parents" apparently used the spelling <Bürger Bräu Keller>, so that's clearly not the reason in its case. It's just a German spelling convention; <ä ö ü> are historically just shorthands for <ae oe ue>, and writing the digraph in full is still allowed, even if I don't think it's exactly commonplace anymore.Omzinesý wrote: ↑19 Mar 2020 11:42Names are written like parents decide hey are written. Steven and Stephen thing.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: ↑19 Mar 2020 03:45 Thank you guys. I wanted to know after a friend asked me a question about it. He's reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and took note of some German names in the book that seem to employ both strategies, e.g. "Bürgerbräukeller" written as "Buergerbräukeller". I assumed that was just a typo.
The name of the famous author is Goethe, not Göte.
But yes, names (such as, indeed, Goethe) do often come in several variants, for a bunch of reasons. Typically some bearers of a name (or their parents or scribes or whatever) might have chosen to continue using a spelling that's otherwise obsolete in the current orthography.
- eldin raigmore
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
There’s a chain of Basement Burger Bars in the Detroit metro area.
It looks like the “burger brew cellar” you’re talking about inspired a translationism!
Are the names related at all?
It looks like the “burger brew cellar” you’re talking about inspired a translationism!
Are the names related at all?
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml