Thank you very much for your response! Hopefully I've taken everything you've said into account.
1) [ˈjas.tsʰrak] - [ˈθpʰəʒi] - [ˈθa.tsʼa] - [ˈpʰiʃ]
2) [ˈjas.rak] - [ˈs̪pʰʃi˨˩] - [ˈt̪ʰa˨˩.tsa] - [ˈfirs]
[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)
Regarding [rʲ] in the second word being close enough, would [ʒ] be "better"?
3) [ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfʂiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [haˈris]
4) [ˈjaː.ʂak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [aˈrasu]
[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθaʔ.t͡sa] - [haˈresu] (Proto-3/4)
Regarding [h] in the fourth word, would [f] be "better"?
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
And you're right to be hesitant about the stressed vowel too. It's not /i/, but it's not /a/ either.
In light of this, I'm tentatively "compromising" with [e].
[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)
[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθaʔ.t͡sa] - [haˈresu] (Proto-3/4)
[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰr̩su] (Proto-1/2/3/4)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Words 1, 2, and 3 are spot on as well, and you're right about the stress shift in this branch as well, and that it did affect Word 4. I don't know if it helps at all, but Word 4 here has one too many syllables.
Interesting! Hmm…
This (the fourth word in Proto-1/2/3/4) has proven to be the most challenging part of this whole thing, to the point where I'm coming back to it after dealing with literally everything else first.
I ended up rambling on a bit here, but I've attempted to condense some of the main "points" here:
I'm fairly confident about the initial consonant. I suppose I'm assuming that the differing reflexes of [pʰ-] in 3/4 are based on the fact that it was originally preceded by [s-] in the second word, but not in the fourth.
I'm also fairly confident about the other two consonants as well, although not about their positions in the word. The fact that, in languages 3 and 4, the rhotic and sibilant are separated by a (difficult to reconstruct) vowel is particularly troubling, given the evidence from most of the other Western languages.
Out of these four languages, the fourth word only ends in a vowel in language 4. Based on the cognates from much of the rest of the family, I'm going to continue to assume, for now, that language 4 was the only member of this branch to retain that [-u].
At least for now, I'm going to assume that stress only shifted once, and therefore, I feel that I should assume that the stressed vowels in all four languages correspond to one another.
After discarding a number of possible reconstructions, I think I'll go with [ˈpʰr̩su] for now, although I'm not at all confident that it's correct. I'm still stumped as to how to explain this word's developments in this part of the family, especially without reconstructing three syllables. My biggest issue, I suppose, is how to explain the pre-tonic syllable in 3/4. If [ˈpʰr̩su] were correct, I could see it becoming [ˈpʰirs] in 1/2 quite easily. In 3/4, however, the rhotic and the sibilant are separate, so it likely became something like [ˈpʰrVsu] at first instead. But then why break up that initial cluster with an [-a-] if the one in the second word was left alone? Maybe [pʰ] had already become [h] by that point, and although [frʲ-] was allowed, [hr-] wasn't?
In any case, I'll definitely have to give all of this a lot more thought, but to prevent myself from getting stuck here, so to speak, and never submitting anything, this is where I'll leave it for now.
5) [eɕˈɕatʂ] - [ˈsfje] - [ˈθa.tsi] - [forˈʂu]
6) [eθˈθjatʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.tse] - [pʰorˈʂu]
[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sæ] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The aspirated /t͡sʰ/ was treated differently, mostly on the basis that it was an affricate rather than a stop, so it shifts to a fricative as an exception [:)]
Ah, that makes sense!
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
And again, this is a valid grouping, and other than the final vowel of Word 3, you've reconstructed all of the proto-words correctly.
After reading this, I was originally going to suggest [-i] instead, but given the final [-a] in the word's cognates in languages 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 13, 14, and 15, reconstructing a high vowel here didn't quite feel right to me. Once I got to your response to my reconstruction of Proto-7/8, however…
I'm still not sure how comfortable I am with positing [-æ] > [-i], but I'll stick with it for now.
7) [asˈtsʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.tsa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu]
8) [asˈtsʰrax] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼats] - [pʰuˈʂu]
[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sæ] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The only thing I have is that the final vowel of Word 3 is off (it's actually the same vowel as in Word 3 of Proto-5/6).
Oh, really? Interesting…
In languages 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 11, the third word has [a] in both syllables. In languages 5 and 6, it has [a] in the first syllable, but either [-i] or [-e] in the second syllable. In languages 13, 14, and 15, it has [ɑ(ː)] in the first syllable, but [-a] in the second. In all other languages, the third word is monosyllabic, and the nucleus of its one syllable is [a], except for in language 16, where it's [ɔɑ].
Based on the difference in backness between the vowels of the third word's two syllables in languages 5, 6, 13, 14, and 15, I'm tentatively going to go with [-æ] here.
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
I'm happy to accept the coda /ʂ/ of the first syllable of Word 4 as well (as has happened elsewhere, I have this down as a late stage sound that does arise before the languages split, so it's immediately correct, because on the basis of what's there in 7 and 8, I can't think of a reason
not to reach that conclusion [:)]
Is [pʰurˈʂu] more of what you had in mind?
Thank you for your leniency, so to speak, in instances like this, by the way!
[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sæ] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)
[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sæ] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)
[asˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰurˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
My main hint for the missing segment in Word 2 and Word 3, is to go back to the thoughts you were having about tone in Language 2 [;)]
Thank you!
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word 3 is also missing one segment, and, yeah, you're right to be unsure about the final vowel. Close with /a/, but slightly off.
Hmm… if [a] is just "slightly off", I feel a bit better about [-æ].
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word 1 is for the most part correct. The initial /ja-/ is off, but that's about it.
Interesting… given the presence of an initial consonant in all other cognates, I assumed there was one originally here, too, despite none of the languages in this branch having an initial consonant in the first word. For now I'm going to assume there was no initial consonant in Proto-5/6/7/8.
Given the difference between [e] in 5/6 and [a] in 7/8, as well as the [j-] in languages 1, 2, 3, 4, and 12, I assumed there was originally an initial [j-] that caused the vowel to front in 5/6, but disappeared in all four languages. Looking over the cognates of the first word in general, I'm actually not entirely sure whether the vowel was originally something closer to [a] or something closer to [e]. Well, of all the "Western" languages, only 5/6 have [e]… so maybe [a] was fronted and raised after the shift from [r] > [j] in the following syllable? Or [e] could have become [a] in 7/8 under the influence of the [a] in the following syllable…
I may just be reading into this too much, but because of the way you phrased your response, referring to the two initial segments [ja-], I'm tentatively going to assume it was just [e-] instead. But it does bother me that all other "Western" languages have [a(ː)]…
Actually, based on your feedback on my reconstruction of Proto-Western, I might flip back to [a-] and assume I was just reading too much into what you'd said.
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word 4 is sort of close. The rhotic is correct, but /-or-/ is not.
Another tough one… since 5/6 both have [-o-] and 7/8 both have [-u-], I'm tempted to just tweak my reconstruction to [pʰurˈʂu], but again, the way you've worded your response makes me think there might be more to it. The fact that, although you've said it's correct, the rhotic is included in the [-or-] sequence that you've identified as incorrect suggests, to me, the possibility that the position of the rhotic inside the word is also off, in addition to the quality of the vowel.
However, given that the rhotic appears immediately before the sibilant in 5/6, as well as my assumption that the geminate [ʂ] in language 7 derives from an earlier sequence of [-rˈʂ-], it doesn't feel right to reconstruct, for instance, [pʰr-] for Proto-5/6/7/8.
For now, then, I'm just going to hope I'm overthinking things here and simply change the vowel to [-u-].
[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰr̩su] (Proto-1/2/3/4)
[asˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰurˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)
[asˈt͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Western)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The initial /ja-/ is off, for the same reason it's off in Proto-5/6/7/8, and the final consonant here is off as well (the correspondence, I think, is a little more straight forward, since this segment on changed in one branch)
Regarding the initial part of the first word, I'm very uncertain about this, but for now, I'm assuming it was [a-] in Proto-Western, and that it later acquired [j-] in 1/2/3/4 (similarly to at least some of the Slavic cognates of the English word "apple", for instance), and was "umlaut-ed" to [e] in 5/6 due to the [j] (< [r]) in the following syllable.
I still can't shake the feeling that the intended meaning of your comment was that both [j-] and [-a-] are off, however…
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
For Word 4, the initial is correct, the rhotic is correct, /-ˈʂu/ is correct, but the number of syllables is wrong.
Interesting… this fourth word definitely is going to be the hardest to reconstruct!
9) [dʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu]
10) [ʒeːˈtʰraː] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰar] - [pʰeiʒu]
[ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word one is almost correct, but the initial is off.
I don't quite feel right positing [ʒ] > [d͡ʒ] here, but given the initial fricative and approximant in 11 and 12, respectively, I suppose I'm giving it a shot.
11) [ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]
12) [ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈpʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰat˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]
[ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The incorrect final part of Word 2 is my fault. I've just noticed that I copied Word 2 in language 11 wrong. That should be /i˥ˈspʰra˩/, which I hope helps. I'll change it in the original post so everyone can keep track as well.
Oh, no worries, it happens! Thank you for letting me know!
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Valid group, and I'd say there's only two mistake, a) the initial of Word 1, and b) the /je-/ of Word 2.
I might just switch to [j-] and [i-] for now, but I don't feel particularly confident.
[ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)
[ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)
[jahˈtʰrax] - [əˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The initial of Word 1 is wrong, but after that it's correct.
Wow, that's giving me all sorts of trouble!
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The initial /je-/ of Word 2 is off, and there's one missing segment from the end of the word, but the rest is fine.
Hmm… I might just reconstruct the first syllable of the second word as an epenthetic schwa for the moment.
Regarding the segments missing from the second and third words, I suppose I should have been able to figure it out, haha.
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word 3 is close, but the medial /d/ is the wrong MOA, and there's one segment missing from the word overall.
Oh wow, MOA? I could have seen it being off in terms of voicing, but this surprises me, considering it's a stop in three of the four languages, and I don't think I want to posit [r] > [t] here, for instance. Looking at cognates from the rest of the "Eastern" languages, it's [l] in 16 and an ejective stop in 13 and 14. I typically think of the difference between, say, [t] and [tʼ], as a difference in airstream mechanism, although I suppose that could/would fall under MOA?
Anyway, it sounds like there's still a glottal stop present here, and it seems to me like the ejectives in other languages have resulted from the loss of a glottal stop before a pulmonic egressive stop or affricate, but if [d] is off here in terms of MOA, this is all I can think of right now, although I'm not at all certain.
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word 4 is pretty close, but /-er/ is wrong (although the rhotic is right)
Maybe the syllabic [r] was original to Proto-9/10/11/12, then? Hmm…
13) [mesˈtʰrɔj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso]
14) [ŋɛˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso]
[ŋesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
(the shift to /m/ in 13 was just an unconditional merger of bilabial and velar nasals)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
For /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ in Language 14, have a look at the surrounding vowels [;)]
Thank you!
I wasn't sure whether to reconstruct [o] or [a] for the first syllable of the fourth word after reading this, but based on the cognates in languages 15 and 16, I'll stick with [a] for now.
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
Word 2 and 3 are correct (I have a segment missing in 2, but it's another one of those "gone by the late stages" things again, and it relates to the ejective in Word 3)
Ah, thank you again!
However, although I'm now more certain about assuming [-ʔ.t-] > [-tʼ-] here, I'm less certain about the situation regarding the third word in Proto-9/10/11/12.
15) [ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː]
16) [heˈtʂʰei] - [ˈʈʂʰei] - [ˈtʰɔɑl] - [ʈʂʰaˈrou]
[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)
[ŋesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14)
[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)
[ɣesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑʔ.ta] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The ejective in Word 3 doesn't go back this far, though, but, again, it's tied to a missing segment in your Word 2 at this level.
The initial for Word 1 is the right POA, but the wrong MOA, and the incorrect vowel in Word 4's initial syllable ties back to what was mention above.
Other than that, everything looks spot on.
Thank you!
I'm not entirely sure about reconstructing [ɣ-] here, but I'll stick with it for now.
[jahˈtʰrax] - [əˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)
[ɣesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑʔ.ta] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)
[ɣesˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tæ] - [pʰrəˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
The initial for Word 1 is off, but it might become clearer why on your second run.
Word 2 and Word 3 are close, but both missing a segment (hint, the ejective doesn't go this for back), and the final vowel is off.
Word 4 is close, but its missing a vowel in the initial syllable.
Considering the initial consonants in the first word in 9/10/11/12, I'm feeling somewhat "better" about [ɣ-].
Oh, the final vowel of the third word is off? Hmm… based on what I've reconstructed for Proto-Western, I might just put [-æ] for now.
For the initial syllable of the fourth word, I think I'm just going to reconstruct the vowel as schwa for now, although I'm admittedly not sure whether to assume [-rə-] or [-ər-].
[asˈt͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Western)
[ɣesˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tæ] - [pʰrəˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)
[ɣesˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tæ] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-World)
sangi39 wrote: ↑11 May 2020 20:13
For Word 1, /gʲa-/ is incorrect, as is the final consonant, but your thought about /t(ʰ)/ > /ts(ʰ)/ is correct for the Western languages
Word 2 is spot on.
Word 3 is close (just the final vowel is off), and you're right about the /ʈ(ʰ)/ > /t(ʰ)/ change in the Western languages as well.
Word 4 is almost right. As you're expecting, the /-or-/ is off. This syllable was particularly subject to change in the daughter languages, because of its relative "weakness".
I suppose I'm tentatively assuming that the first word didn't change in Proto-Eastern.
Relative "weakness", hmm? I suppose I'm assuming the first word didn't change in Proto-Western, then, although I could have gone with [-rə-] or [-ər-] instead of [-r̩-].