Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 06 Aug 2020 04:56
elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 04:02 The claim that language invention has attached to it a stigma of "racism" is quite ludicrous. No random internet blogger or linguistician has the first clue who we are as individuals. There can be no rational basis for the claim that "race" is fueling any kind of stigma against the art; either outsiders levelling accusations of racism towards us or behaving in racist ways against us. I've seen language inventors called many things, as above, but racist is not one of them. Rather I have the feeling that Larry is transferring & internalising his own delusions of what happened over in the Other Place into this essay.
Ummm, I don't think Bob means that people dislike a conlang because its creator is African-American or Jewish or Filipino or Chinese. If I read his post correctly, he means that the fictional peoples who speak conlangs are races not like Western, White, Protestant Homo sapiens. I bet your average racist wouldn't even hire an otherwise White-looking person if said applicant had elf ears, so maybe that even applies to Quenya?
Well, to be fair, this was one of his odd pronouncements, without introduction and without context and something that can be read in several different ways. That's why I chose to hedge my bet and take two different possible readings, either of which could be entirely wrong. You could well be right, but to be honest with you, I didn't read in there anything about the issue being fictional peoples. Even if that is the case, I can scarcely recall any outsider leveling that kind of claim either! If anything, we tend to propose (actual) races and ethnicities far more diverse than anything we find on our monracial, though polyethnic, Earth!

I dunno what a racist might or mightn't do. They might surprise you! 8)

Agreed. Conlanging is not morally wrong. No wronger than eating your bread with the butter side down.
Curious. I started some notes for a story set in a place where, in fact, language invention was considered morally wrong (though mind you, the determiners of what is and isn't moral had a very odd sense of what is morality).

And don't get me started on that disgusting habit of sousbeurrism! If anything should be excoriated with the vimmest of utmostery!
Thanks for bringing that post back up, Elemtilas -- and I'm honored, as that post is in a thread I started! I enjoyed reading back over it. I first discovered the online conlanging community in the mid-nineties, as an eager teen-ager inventing Kankonian and Hapoish. I never got ostracized at school for conlanging, so I'll never know the experience of Xers and other prior generations.
That was a good question! We ought to revisit that every now and again.

I never got ostrichised either at school, but then again, like I said in that post, it wasn't something I talked about with anyone else. Still isn't, really, apart from folks here in the community. And even then, never really on a personal level, apart from yourself & maybe two or three others. I've only ever talked much about it with the son of a friend. Like you in the mid-1990s, he'll be (hopefully) a still eager teenager of the mid-2020s, and hopefully he'll land here and in other good communities!
While conlanging, I learned of such conlangs as Sulekhï/Merdian, Rokbeigalmki, Teonaht, Xara (sp?), Neelan, q^upl (sp?), Rhean, Gonardoi, Gevey, Verdurian, Mango, Talossan, Ilish, Ahua, Ceqli, Fith, Rikchik, aUI, Picture Language, and Tomato. Some, like Verdurian and Talossan, are still going strong; others, to quote George MacBeth, are "Creatures whose names we scarcely remember/Zebra, Rhinoceros, elephants, wart-hog/Lion, rats, deer".
Ah Teonaht! Now that warms the heart! A glossopoem if ever there was!

Several of those, I think, I'd characterise as "distant mountain lost in surrounding forest". There are just so many invented languages out there now, and so many forums, and so much sundering of tongues, that the older names are bound to be forgotten or whose harmony is lost in the cacophony of so much joyful noise.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 05:50 Well, to be fair, this was one of his odd pronouncements, without introduction and without context and something that can be read in several different ways. That's why I chose to hedge my bet and take two different possible readings, either of which could be entirely wrong. You could well be right, but to be honest with you, I didn't read in there anything about the issue being fictional peoples. Even if that is the case, I can scarcely recall any outsider leveling that kind of claim either! If anything, we tend to propose (actual) races and ethnicities far more diverse than anything we find on our monracial, though polyethnic, Earth!
True. All Earth humans are Homo sapiens terranus. Kankonians, Homo sapiens kankoniensis, are still human (they can interbreed with Earth humans) but are close-handed instead of left-handed or right-handed. Shaleyans, Homo sapiens shaleyensis, are also human, but are genetically tweaked by fundamentalist Greys, and as a result can see ultraviolet light and cannot do evil.

Then you have all the non-human sapient species in the Lehola Galaxy: Greys (Delphim sapiens, with several races on different planets), reptoids, lef, ilti, Domeheads (Bodusians!), parrotpeople, pachams, bansaks, wama, homa, kektes, kyuphi, añaks, chais, the Reds, nuk, azhweas, hexamantoids, tetramantoids, pynas, and more! Some not even vertebrate nor chordologue -- the insectoids and cephalopods! There's even a planet with sapient carniferns!

Then there are the other conworlders who have created Daine, Klingons and Ferengi, Na'vi, Tigerians, Qatama, Rikchiks, Fithians, the il, long-longs, Boingies, flaids, ktuvok, Keleñi, bug people, Pigeonese, Itlani, and even non-animal-kingdom Ents!
Curious. I started some notes for a story set in a place where, in fact, language invention was considered morally wrong (though mind you, the determiners of what is and isn't moral had a very odd sense of what is morality).
Now, that is one story that will be of interest to literally everyone in our community! Hope it gets finished.
And don't get me started on that disgusting habit of sousbeurrism! If anything should be excoriated with the vimmest of utmostery!
What a wonderful word -- sousbeurrism! Gets zero Google hits, so you must have been its coiner.
Thanks for bringing that post back up, Elemtilas -- and I'm honored, as that post is in a thread I started! I enjoyed reading back over it. I first discovered the online conlanging community in the mid-nineties, as an eager teen-ager inventing Kankonian and Hapoish. I never got ostracized at school for conlanging, so I'll never know the experience of Xers and other prior generations.
That was a good question! We ought to revisit that every now and again.
[+1]
I never got ostrichised either at school, but then again, like I said in that post, it wasn't something I talked about with anyone else. Still isn't, really, apart from folks here in the community. And even then, never really on a personal level, apart from yourself & maybe two or three others. I've only ever talked much about it with the son of a friend. Like you in the mid-1990s, he'll be (hopefully) a still eager teenager of the mid-2020s, and hopefully he'll land here and in other good communities!
I anticipate his appearance here. Kankonian will be in its late twenties by then. Yes, nice to really get to know to ins and outs of each other's conworlding -- how your Catholicism has shaped good and evil in the World, how my deism has shaped the guided evolution of the iteli in the Lehola Galaxy's version of reality!
While conlanging, I learned of such conlangs as Sulekhï/Merdian, Rokbeigalmki, Teonaht, Xara (sp?), Neelan, q^upl (sp?), Rhean, Gonardoi, Gevey, Verdurian, Mango, Talossan, Ilish, Ahua, Ceqli, Fith, Rikchik, aUI, Picture Language, and Tomato. Some, like Verdurian and Talossan, are still going strong; others, to quote George MacBeth, are "Creatures whose names we scarcely remember/Zebra, Rhinoceros, elephants, wart-hog/Lion, rats, deer".
Ah Teonaht! Now that warms the heart! A glossopoem if ever there was!
Yes, just thinking of Teonaht reminds me of a word that someone submitted to the New English section of Langmaker! It was a noun (beginning with T, I believe) that could mean either "the sight of the sun rising through the hills of the valley at twilight" or "the urge to create languages that comes from watching this".
Several of those, I think, I'd characterise as "distant mountain lost in surrounding forest". There are just so many invented languages out there now, and so many forums, and so much sundering of tongues, that the older names are bound to be forgotten or whose harmony is lost in the cacophony of so much joyful noise.
I'd say your description does justice to them. Check out the conlangs at http://zompist.com/numbers.shtml -- so many old friends that I miss! Watakassí, Danovën, Üqoi, Cispa, Gladilatian, Ziotaki, whatever happened to you? You're my age, but I can't find all of you on Facebook!
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 06 Aug 2020 07:15 All Earth humans are Homo sapiens terranus. Kankonians, Homo sapiens kankoniensis, are still human (they can interbreed with Earth humans) but are close-handed instead of left-handed or right-handed. Shaleyans, Homo sapiens shaleyensis, are also human, but are genetically tweaked by fundamentalist Greys, and as a result can see ultraviolet light and cannot do evil.
For what it worths, Earth humans can see UV quite well. It's just that the lens has this habit of blocking UV from getting to the retina. Claude Monet is as good a case study of this as any.
Curious. I started some notes for a story set in a place where, in fact, language invention was considered morally wrong (though mind you, the determiners of what is and isn't moral had a very odd sense of what is morality).
Now, that is one story that will be of interest to literally everyone in our community! Hope it gets finished.
Never got anywhere with it, though.
What a wonderful word -- sousbeurrism! Gets zero Google hits, so you must have been its coiner.
[:)]
I anticipate his appearance here. Kankonian will be in its late twenties by then. Yes, nice to really get to know to ins and outs of each other's conworlding -- how your Catholicism has shaped good and evil in the World, how my deism has shaped the guided evolution of the iteli in the Lehola Galaxy's version of reality!
Indeed!
Yes, just thinking of Teonaht reminds me of a word that someone submitted to the New English section of Langmaker! It was a noun (beginning with T, I believe) that could mean either "the sight of the sun rising through the hills of the valley at twilight" or "the urge to create languages that comes from watching this".
Marvellous! Now those sound like words Queranarran will need.
Several of those, I think, I'd characterise as "distant mountain lost in surrounding forest". There are just so many invented languages out there now, and so many forums, and so much sundering of tongues, that the older names are bound to be forgotten or whose harmony is lost in the cacophony of so much joyful noise.
I'd say your description does justice to them. Check out the conlangs at http://zompist.com/numbers.shtml -- so many old friends that I miss! Watakassí, Danovën, Üqoi, Cispa, Gladilatian, Ziotaki, whatever happened to you? You're my age, but I can't find all of you on Facebook!
Even more old friends!

Mind you, I notice that Kankonian is nòt in that list!
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by sangi39 »

elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:16
Even more old friends!

Mind you, I notice that Kankonian is nòt in that list!
AAAAHAHAHA! I just went to the "conlangers" part of his site where he lists conlangers, and noticed he spelt my name wrong [:P] That's not me having a go at him, it just happens so much that it's hilarious (also infuriating, but that's context dependent). Like, one of my closest friends, on my birthday, handed me a homemade birthday card, got my name right on the envelope, but wrong in the card [xD]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by elemtilas »

sangi39 wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:25
elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:16
Even more old friends!
AAAAHAHAHA! I just went to the "conlangers" part of his site where he lists conlangers, and noticed he spelt my name wrong [:P] That's not me having a go at him, it just happens so much that it's hilarious (also infuriating, but that's context dependent). Like, one of my closest friends, on my birthday, handed me a homemade birthday card, got my name right on the envelope, but wrong in the card [xD]
Heh! Oups! Well, more easily corrected than a card! I do actually believe he very occasionally posts here. I've noted a couple errors of that sort in the past by email and he's always gracious in correcting.

And, of course: if you have any new languages with numbers, do pass them along!
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:16 For what it worths, Earth humans can see UV quite well. It's just that the lens has this habit of blocking UV from getting to the retina. Claude Monet is as good a case study of this as any.
Because of his cataracts?
Now, that is one story that will be of interest to literally everyone in our community! Hope it gets finished.
Never got anywhere with it, though.
That's too bad.
Yes, just thinking of Teonaht reminds me of a word that someone submitted to the New English section of Langmaker! It was a noun (beginning with T, I believe) that could mean either "the sight of the sun rising through the hills of the valley at twilight" or "the urge to create languages that comes from watching this".
Marvellous! Now those sound like words Queranarran will need.
It was something like "tarimin"? Maybe?
Even more old friends!

Mind you, I notice that Kankonian is nòt in that list!
I sent him the numbers 1-10 in Kankonian, Cetonian, Hapoish, and Shaleyan a long time ago. I see he does have Palang and Tentan, though!

Lately, Janko emailed me to request the numbers 1-10 in "Tentan, Palang, Javarti, Bodusian, Hitan, Kolothan, Quispe". I should let him know I have the numbers 1-16 in Achel now! (It's hexadecimal.)

Oh, and he also asked me the numbers 1-10 in Txabao. I remember I had to wait for Nachtuil to "send them back" to me.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 87,413 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Khemehekis »

sangi39 wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:25 AAAAHAHAHA! I just went to the "conlangers" part of his site where he lists conlangers, and noticed he spelt my name wrong [:P] That's not me having a go at him, it just happens so much that it's hilarious (also infuriating, but that's context dependent). Like, one of my closest friends, on my birthday, handed me a homemade birthday card, got my name right on the envelope, but wrong in the card [xD]
Janko spelled your name "Mark" instead of "Marc"?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 87,413 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 03:36
elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:16 For what it worths, Earth humans can see UV quite well. It's just that the lens has this habit of blocking UV from getting to the retina. Claude Monet is as good a case study of this as any.
Because of his cataracts?
Because the lens was removed! Back then, they didn't have implantable lenses, so they simply removed the offending lens and let the eye heal over naturally. Then they'd fit the patient with these horrible thick lensed spectacles. Point being, with the native lens gone, UV light is allowed free access to the posterior chamber where the retina can see it just fine!
Never got anywhere with it, though.
That's too bad.
I know it. The queue of stuff to work on gets ever longer (got another book in mind, a description of a planetary death ritual, a couple fairy tales and some medical stuff (inspired by your most helpful self, by the way!) to write up. And the queue of stuff that gòt worked on never seems to get proportionally longer.
Yes, just thinking of Teonaht reminds me of a word that someone submitted to the New English section of Langmaker! It was a noun (beginning with T, I believe) that could mean either "the sight of the sun rising through the hills of the valley at twilight" or "the urge to create languages that comes from watching this".
Marvellous! Now those sound like words Queranarran will need.
It was something like "tarimin"? Maybe?
Well let's see! I think tariminuin. From tarain plus ímenne, the radiant Sun shining through a cleft or branches of trees.

It's interesting you should light upon the root tar-, as if you'd had a peek into the lexicon!, because that root is indicative of eyes (in general) and some verbs of seeing. In particular the above, and also tarandirein which is to peer into darkness, to seek vainly, and search fruitlessly.

Well, I'm satisfied! Got something done after all!

Now off to dream about the deaths of planets and the tikǁɑ̥ that remember them for the People.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 07 Aug 2020 05:40
Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 03:36
elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 16:16 For what it worths, Earth humans can see UV quite well. It's just that the lens has this habit of blocking UV from getting to the retina. Claude Monet is as good a case study of this as any.
Because of his cataracts?
Because the lens was removed! Back then, they didn't have implantable lenses, so they simply removed the offending lens and let the eye heal over naturally. Then they'd fit the patient with these horrible thick lensed spectacles. Point being, with the native lens gone, UV light is allowed free access to the posterior chamber where the retina can see it just fine!
Oh, OK, so that must have been how he was treated for his cataracts. Interesting! Did Monet paint ultraviolet hues?

A small number of Earth humans -- all blonde and blue-eyed -- are capable of seeing ultraviolet light even with their lenses on. (Fun fact: The U.S. thought about taking advantage of this to win World War II, but then they realized that with the correlation to being a blonde glaucope, Nazi Germany probably had more ultraviolet-light-seeing people than the U.S. did!) The Shaleyans are blue-eyed, with their hair being either blonde or brown (female Shaleyans are usually blonde, but the guys quite often have brown hair).
I know it. The queue of stuff to work on gets ever longer (got another book in mind, a description of a planetary death ritual, a couple fairy tales and some medical stuff (inspired by your most helpful self, by the way!) to write up. And the queue of stuff that gòt worked on never seems to get proportionally longer.
Was the medical stuff inspired by http://khemehekis.angelfire.com/health.htm, by any chance?

I know it. I think I'll have all the Leholan planets and sapient species that I'm ever going to work on, and then I have a dream about a planet with sapient otters, or the Quispe language, and I'll end up with more work to do.

A few years back, I dreamt I was reading either science fiction or ufology (I don't even remember which of the two it was) that talked about places with names like Urinia and Twpia. It discussed sapients who have 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, or 32 of each body part, and are crazy about powers of two! That was the inspiration for the pynas. If I had never had that dream, the Lehola Galaxy would have one fewer people than it does today.
It was something like "tarimin"? Maybe?
Well let's see! I think tariminuin. From tarain plus ímenne, the radiant Sun shining through a cleft or branches of trees.

It's interesting you should light upon the root tar-, as if you'd had a peek into the lexicon!, because that root is indicative of eyes (in general) and some verbs of seeing. In particular the above, and also tarandirein which is to peer into darkness, to seek vainly, and search fruitlessly.
What a coincidence! false cognate?

The word for "eye" is bwolwo in Kankonian and polo in Hapoish. False cognates for the win!
Now off to dream about the deaths of planets and the tikǁɑ̥ that remember them for the People.
Tikǁɑ̥? With a click? The word reminds me of the Klingon name of the tik'a cat.
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

sangi39 wrote: 05 Aug 2020 20:13 Unfortunately, this has to be a short reply ...
Okay, I will try. I've been thinking about re-reading the website rules.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

So many new replies to this one. I got to try to read these some other time.

I took several days to expand the grammar of Vulcan, mostly grammatical subordination and coordination, and then I just started translating my short text into it. It's a mess because I can't find any glossed texts in Vulcan and the sample texts (the VLI ones from the movie) are ... not idiomatic enough for my tastes. I have some grasp on idiom in foreign languages of different sorts but it's also somewhat nebulous to me.

Oh well, I'll just do what I can. A lot of the new grammar I souped up for Vulcan I won't possibly be able to apply. So some portion.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

sangi39 wrote: 05 Aug 2020 20:13
Unfortunately, this has to be a short reply, but it's similar to my response here.

1) Whatever problems you have of the ZBB, leave them there
2) Do not put words in the mouths of other people, or assume their motivations or intentions, and then proceed to present them as fact without evidence of that.
3) You were criticised for self-aggrandising precisely because you kept referring to your work as "unique" or "worthy of special attention" relying on your BA as evidence of your apparent greatness within the field, and how very few people appreciate your work. Again, if this is a joke, stop it, because it's not funny. If it's serious, again, stop it. You've presented your qualifications, now present your research. Your BA does not exempt you from criticism.
What you say about my posts is totally not true.

1) Okay, I'll try. Somebody asked why my posts are a mess, I think it's relevant the terrible treatment I got over at Zompist Bboard.
2) I know what they wrote me in private, what all was going on.
3) No, that's not what happened. People gave me hassle for being from a different part of the world from them and for their own neglect to carefully read what I wrote. I said clearly that my work was unique because what I study is unique - I'm an amateur language scientist who specializes in the study of all 50 known logographic writing systems. So my linguistics is not that good. But my logographic writing systems and some other things is quite good. And my work is also unique, and I said this clearly several times, because my approach to conlanging is unique.

I only one thing was a joke, not everything I write.

I never said that a BA Linguistics exempt me from criticism, here or on Zompist Bboard.

...

How am I supposed to respond if you make a quick response showing me you don't take what I write seriously and haven't read it carefully enough to be responding much to it?

I already wrote what I wrote and I think it was quite clear. Now I've tried to summarize it and tell you what you got wrong.

...

I hear what you're telling me but I'm having trouble remembering everything. I'm going to review the website rules again next time and go from there. If I keep mentioning my qualifications over and over again, take in mind that I've mostly been on facebook when on the internet the past 5 years, so I'm used to building on the qualifications stated by me in other posts and especially on my facebook profile, and then writing expansions of them for each post as relevant for whatever I'm talking about. I really don't expect people to read everything I write here or on facebook, so there's repetition. But I also forget and have a lot going on. So I can take suggestions and directions but might not remember them right away.

...

This post so far is mostly, I think, me talking about the translations and new grammar I've been making. I'm going to take another week for this so it'll be another week to get all the translations here.

...

It's necessary for me to try to explain my qualifications and achievements in order to explain what's going on with my conlangs and work with conlangs. But I'm not going to review everything I wrote in the past already to be sure I don't repeat myself. Rather, I got some time here and there, I write what I can, there you go.

If I didn't think I knew a thing or two about conlanging, I wouldn't say so. If people think my conlang work is lame, well okay, but then if they show they didn't read where I explained my own approach etc, well, I have to wonder who really cares and who does not. Me, I take conlanging seriously. But my own idea of conlanging.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

There wasn't even much about logographic writing systems in my BA Linguistics. I did it because I couldn't find much in the academic literature and thought it needed work. That's mostly the focus of all my research and conlanging, my 10 or so years of focusing on studying the 50 or so known logographic writing systems in the world.

But the last few months, I haven't made any logographic writing systems for Atlantean, Ancient Africa Conlang, Klingon, Vulcan, Mutsun, or Ferengi. I've thought about it but instead have used them to explore other topics of language science (linguistics) and of scholarship and science. The general consensus is that my conlangs are not that good. I disagree but my ideas of what conlanging should be seem different from most. To me, it's scientific experimentation and public outreach regarding the various things that I study. What makes my conlangs unique is my degree, my research, and my conlanging priorities and theory.

There's some logographic conscripts by me on my website.

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

I posted quite a bit about different logographic writing systems on Zompist Bboard but few people responded. And they were really great posts showing I knew what I was talking about. Not unlike my response to a recent post asking about Classical Chinese linguistics on this website. And that's just what I can do off the top of my head. When I sit down, there's been no one like me.

You know, people want to reply telling me my conlangs are lame and this and that, that's okay. Can I be blamed if I ask them if they're using too harsh a tone and not being as encouraging as they could be? My idea of conlanging starts with my research and focus, so what they're saying is interesting but it's like two different roads.

I've also said elsewhere that I conlang as a way to take a break from all that other intense stuff. Big parts of my conlangs, I try to explain them, but you can't quite get unless you've been doing my research year in and year out. I'm more restrained from doing that sort of thing with Atlantean, Klingon, and Vulcan, because I'm building off other foundations. My own conlangs are, in part, more of a reflection and commentary on the pains of my research.

It would see the readers or responders do not always share my own sense of how innately fascinating this is. That's fine. But there's a point at which it sometimes becomes a problem. Which is amazing to me, the idea that some conlangers do research in different areas of linguistics and that there's little sense of what research into logographic writing systems or sign languages would even entail or the sort of conlangs and conscripts they would inspired, especially over a 15 year period. Add to that the quasi-non-anonymity of facebook and it's a bit jarring to me to try to write it all up in short soundbites when I have time.

I do quite masterly summaries and commentaries upon the history and whole of conlanging, though on Zompist Bboard and my facebook groups, not here yet. But otherwise, my presentations of conlangs are these months awaiting final presentation form and my posts and replies here trying to get people involved, give time for questions to be asked about my specializations in studying conlangs, namely:

The study of historic conlangs and conlangs from famous books, tv, and movies.

And then the whole history and prehistory of conlanging and its place in language science and anthropology.

From my experience, though, asking for charisma or too much besides is a bizaare request. I've know amateur and professional scholars over facebook aplenty and they're often not charismatic and you often cannot ask too much from them. They do what they do and it's something to appreciate. They take what they do seriously and it wears on them. Part of getting something out of them is realizing the wear that various sorts of research does on a person, and then it helps to read biographies to be able to read between the lines.

But I only work on those sometimes. The presentations of results are supposed to be on my website. What I can remember of my work at any particular time is hit or miss.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 13:26
elemtilas wrote: 07 Aug 2020 05:40 I know it. The queue of stuff to work on gets ever longer (got another book in mind, a description of a planetary death ritual, a couple fairy tales and some medical stuff (inspired by your most helpful self, by the way!) to write up. And the queue of stuff that gòt worked on never seems to get proportionally longer.
Was the medical stuff inspired by http://khemehekis.angelfire.com/health.htm, by any chance?
More anatomical than medical per se. And while the linked page will be of interest!, actually you inspired it in one of our fireside chats here!

That's an interesting article indeed. A curious mixture of eutopy & dystopy; amazing advances in science & technology and bewildering benightedness in culture & practice.

What's a pokhale worth? You don't mention the cost of other procedures; would be interesting to see how various procedures stack up.
A few years back, I dreamt I was reading either science fiction or ufology (I don't even remember which of the two it was) that talked about places with names like Urinia and Twpia. It discussed sapients who have 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, or 32 of each body part, and are crazy about powers of two! That was the inspiration for the pynas. If I had never had that dream, the Lehola Galaxy would have one fewer people than it does today.
And, er, how many pynases do they have!? [}:D]
Now off to dream about the deaths of planets and the tikǁɑ̥ that remember them for the People.
Tikǁɑ̥? With a click? The word reminds me of the Klingon name of the tik'a cat.
No such luck. No sleeping yet...
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

I have maybe one day to go before I finish translating the Vulcan text. Then I have until about Thursday to study the Ferengi Language and translate a short text into it. I wonder what the language is like. Then I also have to get all the typed-up part of my translations online. I'll get the (hand-written optional grammar additions) online when I finish work on Okrand Atlantean and my own Ancient Africa Conlang.

I've been able to remember and look up a lot of the grammar additions that I did for Vulcan, though I made some alterations and cut some corners. It's a bit taxing and mind-boggling. They're about subordination and coordination.

I don't remember seeing much stuff like this in conlangs, so I wonder if anyone will notice or say anything. It's all quite bizaare to me, though I've read those parts in Whaley's "Introduction to Typology" before.

I'm also uncomfortable with what I did to make the Vulcan more idiomatic, distinct in idiom from English or even from Earth languages I ever studied. But, you take some time, you do your best.

I'm struggling to decide on a good text to translate into Ferengi. I've been thinking about what I'd translate into Vulcan for a few years now. Not so much for Ferengi.

Image: Spock with a sehlat, a Star Trek animal going back to The Original Series or The Animated Series.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Sehlat

Here's where the image is from.

https://www.tumbral.com/tag/I%27Chaya

Image
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

Replies to replies so far:
Khemehekis wrote: 06 Aug 2020 07:15 ...
elemtilas wrote: 06 Aug 2020 05:50 ...
( Wait, it occurs to me that the Ferengi Language probably won't be as developed as what I and others have done for Vulcan. I'll just wing it as I go, though, it's not as much of a priority as expanding the grammar of Vulcan was. )

...

Khemehekis, 05 Aug 2020:

Ah, global warming denialism.

Well, I don't think I've read of this idea before, that conlanging stigma is related to Native American and other minority language study stigma. But I really think they're related.

Sometimes when I talk about conlangs in books, movies, and tv, I compare it to special effects. These use cutting-edge technology. Conlangs are just like that but most people don't realize it. Not that I'm a huge advocate that all movies have conlangs in them. I actually think it's a giant hassle for the people who make the movies.

Is conlanging stigma and such fueled by racism? Well, there's probably some overlap. The thing is, I think people don't realize that conlangs explore grammar that occurs in the more popular languages and in the less popular languages. And a lot of people don't know what's in the less popular languages (or the more popular languages). And everybody in situations like that has to rely on hearsay and movies and impressions.

You know, if you had a hobby where you restored classic cars, I don't think people would give you as much hassle as if you combined the grammars of multiple languages into an invented grammar which you presented and maybe used to translate texts. And this sort of thing also falls back on really outdated and wrong ideas about what languages are and aren't.

Do I think it's the same racism as causes those things? Sure, I thought about it a bit, and I would say so. But less-studied and minority languages aren't just about racism and wrong ideas about minorities and foreigners, there's also this big gap between modern language science and what most people think about languages. And the connection between what most people think and the cutting edge of bygone centuries regarding language science, which is a strong connection.

So, yeah, it's like a cutting edge of science and ignorance / smartness sort of thing. Even some sorts of poetry might be stigmatized. I've read things like that from national leaders in books from the 1960s. Namely "The Split-Level Trap".

...

elemtilas, 05 Aug 2020:

I've studied history and modern ideas about how languages work, both by language scientists and everybody else, and what I wrote is what I wrote.

But this is interesting.

But it is the study of real languages and the saving of dying languages. Conlangers use such things to make their languages and in the process promote and maybe even improve the state of language science.

Becoming a real language scientist is certainly not for everyone. I'm not a real language scientist or anthropologist, I'm an "amateur" or "independent scholar" and not much of one by most standards, never having gotten published. I have a mere BA Linguistics, no MS or PhD.

I have spent time with a lot of people on facebook over the past 5 years and have studied psychology, even of multiple eras, quite a bit. Conlangers usually aren't crazy* and if they are, it's the typical sorts of crazy found in great professional and amateur scholars. *I don't like terms like "mentally ill". But even if they mostly were, it's still a great thing that they do. I consider conlanging very parallel to the study and advancement of language science (my prefered term for "linguistics").

I suppose anything in excess could be bad. But it's a regional and cultural thing what's defined as "bad".

Hear this: I actually specialize in the study of modern pseudo-linguistics and historical and prehistoric ideas about linguistics (using myths and logographic writing systems and texts from the dawn of writing, (non-literate) ethnography, etc). I've maybe read as much modern pseudo-linguistics as I have of conlangs.

So these critics of conlanging have no idea what they're talking about. Conlanging is instead like language and foreign language and anthropological exploration, akin to poetry and hobbies that involve the cutting edge of science - which, loosely, is just about all of them.

It's possible that a big push behind vocal critics of conlanging, however, are the people selling other hobbies. I've read of such things.

Well, I don't think it's useless. I even did an essay to Zompist Bboard recently on the history and prehistory of conlanging where I showed the similarity between conlangs, pseudo-conlangs, and "ritual languages" and "language games" attested from people all over the world and throughout time.

So these anti-conlanging ideas are just another mask of ignorance of anthropology.

I suppose some of their arguements might have some value for consideration in them. It's up to conlangers and anti-conlangers to weigh arguments for and against.

I have an obligation as an amateur anthropologist to speak up, however, and hence my current comments in this thread and in my recent and past histories of conlanging posted in Zompist Bboard under the pseudonym "Bob" and on my facebook groups, such as "Famous Conlang Decipherment and History of Conlanging".

No, what I meant if I used the word "racism" was that conlanging stigma is tied up with minority language study stigma and even foreign language study stigma and related concepts. But racism is in there somewhere, the common but outdated ideas that minority languages are not worth studying, that they "lack grammar", and "make us wrong-headed".

...

Cough. No, it's not related to that. Not directly.

...

More about Americans: I don't get people kicked off internet communities for being from another country or a different community than myself. I give people like that leeway and try to at least google a few things. But some Americans are not like this. They think the whole rest of the world acts and thinks like them. So whole groups of people in the USA - the poor, minorities, foreigners - have to live in abject fear in their ghettos and avoid going outside them as much as possible. And there's richer and poorer ethnic ghettos in the USA.

Me, I'm a recent immigrant to the USA from the Philippines. Most second-generation Filipino Americans can't relate to me. They forget about the old country fast or hate it for some reason. When I'm on some internet community, I try to make these things clear to the admins and sometimes it works out but sometimes it doesn't. Most facebook groups, you can't expect American admins to know about these sort of things. It depends on the group topic. I can say I've been surprised sometimes.

George Floyd may or may not have been in his ghetto - stuff like what happened to him happens to Blacks, American poor, and others - in and out of their ghettos. And if you watch the George Floyd thing, they'll just give the guilty a slap on the wrist and then probably chase his family out of the State in retaliation, maybe even put an expressway over their neighborhood. A person can get away with terrible crimes if they're "a community pillar" in most places in the USA. The mindset seems to be that "all Blacks are the same" or "all American poor are the same", etc.

But it's not true and there is a price to pay. Justice is just not a priority. Other things are priorities.


Khemehekis, 05 Aug 2020:

No, I didn't mean that people dislike conlangs because of the ethnicities of their creators. The general impression I get from media jokes and such is that people think conlangs are totally useless and crazy. If you study French, you're excentric. If you study Klingon, go away.

elemtilas, 05 Aug 2020:

Hmm. Someone should make books of this stuff before it gets deleted from the internet. I might be able to spare some time somewhere.

Khemehekis, 06 Aug 2020:

How old is Itlani?

elemtilas, 06 Aug 2020:

I hope to do studies of old conlangs some day. More than I already have.

Well, I read the rest of the comments, mostly those two talking. I don't have any more comments to add.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by elemtilas »

Bob wrote: 11 Aug 2020 06:05 I don't get people kicked off internet communities for being from another country or a different community than myself.
Bob wrote: 11 Aug 2020 06:10 I private messaged people who did not get along with me in hopes of winning them over and they twisted what I wrote them and unfairly got me thrown off the group. I also made clear to the admins and the members that I wrote that I'm a recent immigrant from the Philippines to America, explained things, and then was still suspiciously spoken to and excluded from the group.

This is really absurd. This Elemtilas person and some others bullied and harassed me off of Zompist Bboard and now he's trying to do it here. And it's quite clear to me from what he wrote me in private messages that it's because I'm a recent immigrant Filipino American. I hope the admins and moderators will stand up to him and not allow him or others to harass and bully me off this website as well.
I think you'll need to provide some evidence for these accusations.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by sangi39 »

Right, as much as I dislike doing this, if people can't move on from the ZBB stuff, I'm going to lock this thread. Same goes for the Ferengi one.

I'm at work at the moment, so I can't respond to everything that's going on at the moment in any real depth (at least not for another 6 hours), but I'm stepping in before this goes any further.

Again, drop it, everyone, or this thread gets locked.

(I'm aware I have PMs to reply to as well)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by Bob »

So I finished the Vulcan translation and hope to get it online maybe in a week. But the hand-written notes and optional grammar expansions might take another month or so to get online. And the same goes for my work on Klingon and Mutsun.

I recently did a huge post about both Vulcan Languages and now Ferengi Languages to my Ferengi Language thread, describing them at length. I'm maybe going to document and expand Ferengi Languages into a single Ferengi Language and translate some short texts into them. I might expand this project for another week, making it 3. It's been 2 weeks as of tomorrow.

I'll include a link in case all this stuff gets shuffled or just to make it easier to follow.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7289&p=302909#p302909

Oh, and that said, I used as much of the 1960s Vulcan conlang as I could but it wasn't that much. However, there were some (Conlang Bulletin Board or Zompist Bboard) thoughts on a Vulcan language from maybe around 2003 - and I used none of that and now wish that I could, just for the sake of making something more satisfying. So I might do that. But it really was quite at odds with what all we already had for Vulcan Languages. So we'll see what I come up with. I really put a lot of time and energy into that translation and optional grammar expansion.
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Re: Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects

Post by masako »

Bob wrote: 12 Aug 2020 22:10 I'll include a link in case all this stuff gets shuffled or just to make it easier to follow.
Unfortunately, it is not producing the desired effect.
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