Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
- anonymous123
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Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
Hey CBB!
Now that my relay run is finally done (whew!) I'm going to share some info about a conlang I've been working on for a little bit, to which I'll be devoting some more time in the future. Canocua (autonym: ona:taʔwę) is a Northern Iroquoian language spoken by approximately 1400 people in the central area of present-day New River, WV, United States. The autonym means "village language," but the English exonym is from Proto-Northern-Iroquoian *knõkʷeh "they are people, they are human" (the Canocua equivalent would be gayǫ:kwe).
Here's a brief summary of its diachronics:
Iroquoian
⤷ Proto-Iroquoian
⤷ Proto-Northern-Iroquoian
⤷ Lake Iroquoian
⤷ Iroquois Proper
⤷ Canocua
I'll post morphological data as it becomes solidified, but I do have a verb structure down, which is as templatic as it is in other Iroquoian languages, and I will post that with the other data. Until then, here are my sources (last updated: 8/31/2020 1:03 ET):
Julian, Charles (2010). A History of the Iroquoian Languages (PDF) (PhD thesis). University of Manitoba.
Note that I'm working from scarce resources, as the Iroquoian languages have not had much modern academic coverage. While the first paper mentioned above has been an amazing source (which I recommend if you're interested in Iroquoian linguistics), I will begin to use more sources that are more specific to certain Iroquoian languages as I find them, and so continue to improve my yet limited knowledge about this awesome language family.
Can't wait to share more soon!
Now that my relay run is finally done (whew!) I'm going to share some info about a conlang I've been working on for a little bit, to which I'll be devoting some more time in the future. Canocua (autonym: ona:taʔwę) is a Northern Iroquoian language spoken by approximately 1400 people in the central area of present-day New River, WV, United States. The autonym means "village language," but the English exonym is from Proto-Northern-Iroquoian *knõkʷeh "they are people, they are human" (the Canocua equivalent would be gayǫ:kwe).
Here's a brief summary of its diachronics:
Iroquoian
⤷ Proto-Iroquoian
⤷ Proto-Northern-Iroquoian
⤷ Lake Iroquoian
⤷ Iroquois Proper
⤷ Canocua
I'll post morphological data as it becomes solidified, but I do have a verb structure down, which is as templatic as it is in other Iroquoian languages, and I will post that with the other data. Until then, here are my sources (last updated: 8/31/2020 1:03 ET):
Julian, Charles (2010). A History of the Iroquoian Languages (PDF) (PhD thesis). University of Manitoba.
Note that I'm working from scarce resources, as the Iroquoian languages have not had much modern academic coverage. While the first paper mentioned above has been an amazing source (which I recommend if you're interested in Iroquoian linguistics), I will begin to use more sources that are more specific to certain Iroquoian languages as I find them, and so continue to improve my yet limited knowledge about this awesome language family.
Can't wait to share more soon!
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- anonymous123
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ona:taʔwę phonology and orthography
Phonology:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- GoshDiggityDangit
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
This is a very interesting concept, and I'm excited to see more! Where did you find resources for Proto-Iroquoian?
“Like billowing clouds, Like the incessant gurgle of the brook,
The longing of the spirit can never be stilled.” ― St. Hildegard von Bingen
The longing of the spirit can never be stilled.” ― St. Hildegard von Bingen
- anonymous123
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
Thanks, I'm glad to hear that! A History of the Iroquoian Languages (linked above) is my primary source right now. The Wikipedia and Wiktionary pages for Proto-Iroquoian are also great starting points.GoshDiggityDangit wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020 13:38 This is a very interesting concept, and I'm excited to see more! Where did you find resources for Proto-Iroquoian?
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- DesEsseintes
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
I’m curious to know how the lateral affricate developed, especially given the absence of a lateral approximant. If I were to hazard I guess, I suppose Cl clusters could have turned into the lateral affricate while the lateral approximant merged with /j w/ but please, prove me entirely wrong!
- anonymous123
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
Good guess, but not quite, considering Cl clusters in Proto-Iroquoian and Proto-Northern-Iroquoian are already very rare as it is, if not nonexistent. It was actually evolved from /tʃ/, which, during early stages of Canocua's development, evolved from /tsh/, usually in PNI /ts/ where a reflex with /h/ follows. The lateral approximant did merge with /j w/, though!DesEsseintes wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020 15:53 I’m curious to know how the lateral affricate developed, especially given the absence of a lateral approximant. If I were to hazard I guess, I suppose Cl clusters could have turned into the lateral affricate while the lateral approximant merged with /j w/ but please, prove me entirely wrong!
Here's an example with Canocua and other Iroquoian languages: (all words in IPA)
PNI *-nẽtsh- "arm"
> Mohawk, Oneida -nʌ̃tsh-
> Tuscarora -nə̃tʃh-
> Nottoway *-nẽtʃh-
> Onondaga, Cayuga -nẽtsh-
> Huron -nẽsh-
> Seneca -nɛ̃sh-
> Canocua -nɛ̃t͡ɬ-
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- DesEsseintes
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
It’s cool that your lateral affricate corresponds to sibilant affricates in the other langs.
Nitpick though:
Given the large number of irregular reflexes in Cherokee dialects of clusters that include tl hl, etc. that are hard to reconstruct the PI ancestors for, I find it difficult to believe that C-liquid clusters were rare in proto-Iroquoian.
Of course, we don’t know the precise nature of the liquid.
Nitpick though:
I don’t think that’s true. Just as a couple of examples, hr and hrj are reconstructed all the way back to PI, and the extremely common nominaliser affixes -hsr and -ʔtshr (pg. 148 in Julian Charles) are reconstructed back to PNI.anonymous123 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020 16:56 considering Cl clusters in Proto-Iroquoian and Proto-Northern-Iroquoian are already very rare as it is, if not nonexistent.
Given the large number of irregular reflexes in Cherokee dialects of clusters that include tl hl, etc. that are hard to reconstruct the PI ancestors for, I find it difficult to believe that C-liquid clusters were rare in proto-Iroquoian.
Of course, we don’t know the precise nature of the liquid.
- anonymous123
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
Sorry, that was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought by Cl you meant /l/ and not all the other liquids. Speaking of those, /r/ eventually shifted to /d/ in Canocua.DesEsseintes wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020 17:57 It’s cool that your lateral affricate corresponds to sibilant affricates in the other langs.
Nitpick though:I don’t think that’s true. Just as a couple of examples, hr and hrj are reconstructed all the way back to PI, and the extremely common nominaliser affixes -hsr and -ʔtshr (pg. 148 in Julian Charles) are reconstructed back to PNI.anonymous123 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020 16:56 considering Cl clusters in Proto-Iroquoian and Proto-Northern-Iroquoian are already very rare as it is, if not nonexistent.
Given the large number of irregular reflexes in Cherokee dialects of clusters that include tl hl, etc. that are hard to reconstruct the PI ancestors for, I find it difficult to believe that C-liquid clusters were rare in proto-Iroquoian.
Of course, we don’t know the precise nature of the liquid.
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- anonymous123
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Canocua verb template, version 1
While I get the rest of the verb morphology sorted out, here's the general structure of the verb in Canocua. As you can probably infer, not all of these "slots" will be filled. I will post the details/content of each part of the template one-by-one, as I get them worked out. The template itself may also be changed, depending on what else I learn about the structure. The morphophonology that will occur on the boundaries between slots in the template should be interesting The diachronics of highly synthetic languages such as the Iroquoian languages are also fascinating to study.
Also, I've seen a lot of interesting derivational affixes! Probably the best part about Iroquoian languages, besides how awesome they look, is that derivation can lead to a wide variety of different words from any given root.
Verb Template:
Also, I've seen a lot of interesting derivational affixes! Probably the best part about Iroquoian languages, besides how awesome they look, is that derivation can lead to a wide variety of different words from any given root.
Verb Template:
Spoiler:
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- eldin raigmore
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Re: Canocua verb template, version 1
This is great!anonymous123 wrote: ↑02 Sep 2020 03:01 While I get the rest of the verb morphology sorted out, here's the general structure of the verb in Canocua.
I am curious about templatic morphology or slot-and-filler morphology.
I’m interested in the semantics of some of these!
Do nouns also have a template?
What about adjectives, or other parts-of-speech?
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
- anonymous123
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Re: Canocua verb template, version 1
Thank you for the kind words ❤eldin raigmore wrote: ↑02 Sep 2020 05:41This is great!anonymous123 wrote: ↑02 Sep 2020 03:01 While I get the rest of the verb morphology sorted out, here's the general structure of the verb in Canocua.
I am curious about templatic morphology or slot-and-filler morphology.
I’m interested in the semantics of some of these!
Do nouns also have a template?
What about adjectives, or other parts-of-speech?
Nouns and other parts of speech don't have templates; nouns can have possessive prefixes, but that's all I have solidified at this point. Adjectives in most Iroquoian languages don't change morphologically, either. Besides, a large number of Iroquoian adjective words are modified stative verbs, of course with some exceptions.
Another note: Cherokee is the only extant Southern Iroquoian language, and as such is quite deviant from the rest of the Iroquoian languages.
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- anonymous123
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Canocua verbs, slot 1: prepronominal prefixes
Yikes, I have really neglected this thread, haven't I? I don't usually post on forums. Gotta set reminders for this stuff
Anyway, after a couple of days ofprocrastination rigorous conlanging, I present the first part of the verb template. The Iroquoian languages, including Proto-Iroquoian and Proto-Northern-Iroquoian, have/had an extensive system of prefixes that appear before the obligatory pronoun slot. These are usually called prepronominal prefixes, and they mark several miscellaneous grammatical features. Some prefixes can only occur with certain verb bases (more on that at another time), and they occur in a set order. As you may be able to tell, the vast majority are inherited from Proto-Northern-Iroquoian in structure, but with the addition of a 7th position class template slot for imperative, which was originally incorporated into the pronominal prefix.
Even from cursory readings of NI verb structure, I find it hard to even comprehend the amount of verb forms a single root can take, excluding incorporated nouns. I wonder whether an Iroquoian language could ever surpass the purported 1,502,839* mathematically possible verb forms of the legendary Archi language of the Caucasus.(There's only one way to find out)
*Source: Kibrik, A. E. (2001). "Archi (Caucasian—Daghestanian)", The Handbook of Morphology, Blackwell, pg. 468.
Anyway, after a couple of days of
Even from cursory readings of NI verb structure, I find it hard to even comprehend the amount of verb forms a single root can take, excluding incorporated nouns. I wonder whether an Iroquoian language could ever surpass the purported 1,502,839* mathematically possible verb forms of the legendary Archi language of the Caucasus.
*Source: Kibrik, A. E. (2001). "Archi (Caucasian—Daghestanian)", The Handbook of Morphology, Blackwell, pg. 468.
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- anonymous123
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Pre-Update
It's been way too long since I've posted here. Recently I've been in a bad state mentally and emotionally, which is the reason for my relative silence within the conlanging sphere in general.
Anyway, I'm back now, and I'll start making more regular updates to this.
Anyway, I'm back now, and I'll start making more regular updates to this.
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
- GoshDiggityDangit
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Re: Canocua (ona:taʔwę): an Iroquoian conlang
Take your time, we'll be happy to see what's in store .
“Like billowing clouds, Like the incessant gurgle of the brook,
The longing of the spirit can never be stilled.” ― St. Hildegard von Bingen
The longing of the spirit can never be stilled.” ― St. Hildegard von Bingen
- DesEsseintes
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Re: Pre-Update
Looking forward to it.anonymous123 wrote: ↑07 Oct 2020 05:12 It's been way too long since I've posted here. Recently I've been in a bad state mentally and emotionally, which is the reason for my relative silence within the conlanging sphere in general.
Anyway, I'm back now, and I'll start making more regular updates to this.
- anonymous123
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Canocua verbs, slot 2: non-singular animate infix
Anyway, I do have a small tidbit right now I can share. Canocua, like many Iroquoian languages, has a non-singular animate prefix, -ga- (from Proto-Northern-Iroquoian and Proto-Iroquoian -ka-). According to Charles, the prefix precedes the pronominal prefix slot to change a 3rd person animate argument (3A) to non-singular animate (NSA), which is probably the closest
Julian provides a relatively simple example from Cherokee, although it is a South Iroquoian language:
/tsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see someone" (1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
/kàtsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
Canocua:
gekę "I see someone" (1SG:3-see.PRES
gagekę "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3-see.PRES)
This can apply to the subject as well:
wa:kekę "someone sees me" (3:1SG-see.PRES)
gawa:kekę "they see me" (NSA-3:1SG-see.PRES)
Stay tuned for more about those pronominal prefixesonce I get around to finishing those!
WARNING: Disclaimer about Canocua related to politics and history
Julian provides a relatively simple example from Cherokee, although it is a South Iroquoian language:
/tsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see someone" (1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
/kàtsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
Canocua:
gekę "I see someone" (1SG:3-see.PRES
gagekę "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3-see.PRES)
This can apply to the subject as well:
wa:kekę "someone sees me" (3:1SG-see.PRES)
gawa:kekę "they see me" (NSA-3:1SG-see.PRES)
Stay tuned for more about those pronominal prefixes
WARNING: Disclaimer about Canocua related to politics and history
Spoiler:
ngąxayo peřwa a nałatą zehą, Irkąlą a tinąk a pehenątą zehą; nał a zehą, xąnituhąpąkałąpą he xąhatunąhąx; dą a zehą, xąnihąhaningnumąnwąpąnawe; nał a zehą, tan tukuhoyohoyopąnawe henąngahenąngatą a pwązi...
Re: Canocua verbs, slot 2: non-singular animate infix
Your disclaimer is fair, if you feel that you MUST, but the butthurtedness that some modern-day people feel over what they categorize as "cultural appropriation," amongst other factors, is, likely, WHY you feel you must. Along THESE lines, no one should learn about the world, ONLY maintaining their distance in their little bubbles. If you want to talk politics, this persuaded derision of curiosity (showing love to a topic through simple and honest mimicry, flattering the culture) through divisive tactics (implying a culture has been "appropriated," due to some overarching cultural misanthropy) is just a push to maintain our world from civilly cohering into a TRUE Globe, where to be actualized into the desired globalist model, with everyone left in an intellectually absent stupor, full of fear, and maintained by a self-imposed seclusion.anonymous123 wrote: ↑12 Oct 2020 14:08 Anyway, I do have a small tidbit right now I can share. Canocua, like many Iroquoian languages, has a non-singular animate prefix, -ga- (from Proto-Northern-Iroquoian and Proto-Iroquoian -ka-). According to Charles, the prefix precedes the pronominal prefix slot to change a 3rd person animate argument (3A) to non-singular animate (NSA), which is probably the closest
Julian provides a relatively simple example from Cherokee, although it is a South Iroquoian language:
/tsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see someone" (1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
/kàtsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
Canocua:
gekę "I see someone" (1SG:3-see.PRES
gagekę "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3-see.PRES)
This can apply to the subject as well:
wa:kekę "someone sees me" (3:1SG-see.PRES)
gawa:kekę "they see me" (NSA-3:1SG-see.PRES)
Stay tuned for more about those pronominal prefixesonce I get around to finishing those!
WARNING: Disclaimer about Canocua related to politics and historySpoiler:
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Canocua verbs, slot 2: non-singular animate infix
I don't think we need to bring real-world politics into it, DV82LECM, especially given that anonymous123 has already stated that they'd rather not discuss it, and focus solely on the language as best as possible.DV82LECM wrote: ↑12 Oct 2020 21:49Your disclaimer is fair, if you feel that you MUST, but the butthurtedness that some modern-day people feel over what they categorize as "cultural appropriation," amongst other factors, is, likely, WHY you feel you must. Along THESE lines, no one should learn about the world, ONLY maintaining their distance in their little bubbles. If you want to talk politics, this persuaded derision of curiosity (showing love to a topic through simple and honest mimicry, flattering the culture) through divisive tactics (implying a culture has been "appropriated," due to some overarching cultural misanthropy) is just a push to maintain our world from civilly cohering into a TRUE Globe, where to be actualized into the desired globalist model, with everyone left in an intellectually absent stupor, full of fear, and maintained by a self-imposed seclusion.anonymous123 wrote: ↑12 Oct 2020 14:08 Anyway, I do have a small tidbit right now I can share. Canocua, like many Iroquoian languages, has a non-singular animate prefix, -ga- (from Proto-Northern-Iroquoian and Proto-Iroquoian -ka-). According to Charles, the prefix precedes the pronominal prefix slot to change a 3rd person animate argument (3A) to non-singular animate (NSA), which is probably the closest
Julian provides a relatively simple example from Cherokee, although it is a South Iroquoian language:
/tsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see someone" (1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
/kàtsìːkȍːwthíhaː/ "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3A-see.PRES-INDC.INDP)
Canocua:
gekę "I see someone" (1SG:3-see.PRES
gagekę "I see them" (NSA-1SG:3-see.PRES)
This can apply to the subject as well:
wa:kekę "someone sees me" (3:1SG-see.PRES)
gawa:kekę "they see me" (NSA-3:1SG-see.PRES)
Stay tuned for more about those pronominal prefixesonce I get around to finishing those!
WARNING: Disclaimer about Canocua related to politics and historySpoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.