Quick Diachronics Challenge

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ɶʙ ɞʛ
greek
greek
Posts: 729
Joined: 02 Aug 2019 18:47

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK: [ʃma:twat] - [ɟmaud] - [d͡zeʎi] - [qə:ʔ]

Is this grouping correct? /ɲ/ in K comes from an original palatal stop, which shifted to /d/ in J; and /m/ > /n/ next to coronals in K.
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10373
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

I want to apologize for how long it's taken me to respond to this round of the game. Even after I finished everything I had to do for school, I was focused on participating in Lexember and also dealing with a lot in my offline life, so to speak.

This round has been very difficult, at least for me. In this first attempt, I'm not even going to try to reconstruct the original forms of the four words. I've tried multiple times over the past few weeks, but at some point I always find myself getting stuck and doing things that make no sense. Below the spoiler, I've only included the first few "stages", I guess, of my reconstruction, where things generally still make some sense to me.
Spoiler:
A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæci] - [ˈuɸce] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈei̯ce] 

I feel like my biggest problem here, currently, has to do with the correspondence between A [l] : B [d] in Word 1 and A [ɥ] : B [ɟ] in Word 3. I'm going with [l] and [j] for now.

C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [kɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudzre] - [ˈɟeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

Aside from the initial consonant of Word 1, what's throwing me off the most is Word 2, specifically the medial cluster. At this point, I'm basically just taking a guess. 

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈtθi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈtθa]

I'm not positive at all about [tθ] anywhere, but we'll see how this goes.

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈri] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈroi̯m] - [jiˈɣɛj]

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]

J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]

K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

I spent so much time trying to get these three (or some subset of them) to fit together as neatly as, say, AB or GH, but nothing's felt right, so for now I'm just going to assume they're "isolates" within the family, at least at this level.

L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoˈla] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

I'm least sure about the initial consonants of Words 2 and 3. I feel like it's also possible that [ɰ] may have originally been present in Word 4, but I suppose we'll see.

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [iɴˈqχoda] - [ˈqædɮa] - [inˈɮeɮa] - [ˈʔɘgə]

I'm least certain about the final vowels of all four words, as well as the stressed vowels of Words 3 and 4.

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæcˈcoθə] - [ˈjæɟɟəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈθɨccə]

I feel like I have a very poor grasp of what's going on here. I suspect there's more going on with the final vowels, but I'm not sure what. The correspondences involving the palatal stops in Q are particularly baffling. My original assumption was that they were original to PQ, but for whatever reason, I can't shake the feeling that something akin to the so-called "Faroese Verschärfung" may have taken place in Q instead. Alternatively, the solution may be something that hasn't even occurred to me!

R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔáːzzèi̯dʒí] - [pói̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dzé]

The correspondences between R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] in Word 1, R [ð] : S [dʒ] : T [dʑ] also in Word 1, and R [ð] : S [dz] : T [dʑ] are currently giving me the most trouble. I'm also rather uncertain about the voicing of the initial consonants of Words 2 and 4. 

U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâttʃì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [zə̀zîttʃè]

The sequences that are giving me the most trouble at the moment here are [âʃs] in Word 1 and [îʃs] in Word 4 in U vs. [àttʃ] in Word 1 and [ìttʃ] in Word 4 in V. 

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]

I suppose I'm assuming that [je] in Word 3 in W vs. [eːj] in Word 3 in X could be explained by metathesis, but looking at the word's cognates in UV, I'm not entirely sure about that. 

Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jalú] - [ʀìːcə]
I definitely don't feel right about how close my version of YZ is to Y.


AB [xae̯ˈlæci] - [ˈuɸce] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈei̯ce] 
CD [kɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudzre] - [ˈɟeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [kaːˈræci] - [ˈpurce] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈeːce]
I'm really not sure what's going on in Word 2.

EF [arˈtθi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈtθa]
GH [kaːˈri] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈroi̯m] - [jiˈɣɛj]

EFGH [karˈti] - [ˈtʁaj] - [eˈromi] - [jiˈtaj]

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]

J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]

K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

LM [ħoˈla] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

I, J, and K still don't feel like they obviously fit anywhere, and LM doesn't seem to be particularly close to, for instance, NO.

NO [iɴˈqχoda] - [ˈqædɮa] - [inˈɮeɮa] - [ˈʔɘgə]
PQ [tʃəsæcˈcoθə] - [ˈjæɟɟəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈθɨccə]

NOPQ [tisækˈkoθa] - [ˈgægəɮa] - [diˈɮeɬa] - [ˈθɨkə]

If NOPQ is a valid grouping, my reconstructions of NO and PQ surely must be off quite a bit. I'm really not sure what's going on here at this point.

RST [ʔáːzzèi̯dʒí] - [pói̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâttʃì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [zə̀zîttʃè]

RSTUV [ʔɑ̀ɣzə̀záddʒì] - [ɸówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [qèzíddzè]

Not to imply that I'm confident about any other part of this, but I'm positive that there's something I must be missing/getting wrong with regards to [q] : [z] in Word 4. 

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jalú] - [ʀìːcə]

WXYZ [ʂaːzàtə] - [ʙóʂə] - [jalú] - [ʀìːkə]

I originally reconstructed WXYZ with stress, but given RSTUV, I've changed my mind.
Ratsawn
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 47
Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

I'll quickly respond to ɶʙ ɞʛ , and then I'll try to get a response to Shimobaatar soon.
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 29 Dec 2020 01:57 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK: [ʃma:twat] - [ɟmaud] - [d͡zeʎi] - [qə:ʔ]
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 29 Dec 2020 01:57 Is this grouping correct?
IJK is actually a correct grouping. Good job
Word 1: assuming the vowels are supposed to be low back rather than low front, they're correct (I assume it was just a typo). The initial and final consonant are correct
Word 2: again, I feel like you're vowels are typoed, so if you meant ɒu, then they're correct. If you didn't, then you're welcome. The final consonant is also correct.
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: The q and the ə: are correct, but the q is in the wrong place.
All the vowels in words 1, 2, and 4 are missing a feature (it's the same for all of them, and explains some of the divergence of K)
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 29 Dec 2020 01:57 /ɲ/ in K comes from an original palatal stop, which shifted to /d/ in J; and /m/ > /n/ next to coronals in K.
This is only sorta close, you're right that the surrounding sounds altered the POAs of the nasals in K, but the nasal-genesis is wholly different from what you've postulated. I hinted at it above.
Ratsawn
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 47
Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

Here's my response to Shimobaatar. No worries about taking your time. I was actually relieved you took so long because it gave me a chance to focus on finals and life without this hanging over my head for a bit.

And as for the difficulty, as I look over things, I do see how the forms got more divergent than is normally expected from this game. The next one I do will be easier for sure, and I expect to give away several answers when the players get stuck, so don't fret.
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæci] - [ˈuɸce] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈei̯ce]
Word 1: only the third consonant is incorrect
Word 2: only the second consonant is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the diphthong and the consonant are incorrect
All your incorrect segments are only slightly off, so don't diverge too much in your next guess.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I feel like my biggest problem here, currently, has to do with the correspondence between A [l] : B [d] in Word 1 and A [ɥ] : B [ɟ] in Word 3. I'm going with [l] and [j] for now.
Good choice!
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [kɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudzre] - [ˈɟeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]
Word 1: the initial consonant is off
Word 2: all the segments are correct, but some are in the incorrect order
Word 3: the nucleus is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 Aside from the initial consonant of Word 1, what's throwing me off the most is Word 2, specifically the medial cluster. At this point, I'm basically just taking a guess.
The initial consonant in word 1 is the same in CD as in the larger group which CD came from (I call it by the letters, but to avoid giving too much away, I'll say Proto-West).
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈtθi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈtθa]
Word 1: Essentially correct! Though technically the two affricates came from different rules, compare with word two if you care to search for the real form.
Word 2: the initial (assuming you mean it as an affricate) is incorrect.
Word 3: Correct!
Word 3: the consonant(s) is/are incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm not positive at all about [tθ] anywhere, but we'll see how this goes.
It's not correct anywhere, but two of the places you've reconstructed it have the same proto-form, while the third comes from a different source.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈri] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈroi̯m] - [jiˈɣɛj]
Word 1: one consonant is incorrect
Word 2: one incorrect segment and one extra segment
Word 3: only m is correct, but everything else is very close
Word 4: only the unstressed vowel is correct, and there's an extra segment
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]

J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]

K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

I spent so much time trying to get these three (or some subset of them) to fit together as neatly as, say, AB or GH, but nothing's felt right, so for now I'm just going to assume they're "isolates" within the family, at least at this level.
They are not "isolates" (I ended up with so many source languages in part because I wanted to avoid having isolates at any level), and I understand your frustration. You're most certainly overthinking this though. The answer is right under your nose, and it's way simpler than it seems.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoˈla] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Word 1: missing a segment
Word 2: the stressed vowel is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm least sure about the initial consonants of Words 2 and 3. I feel like it's also possible that [ɰ] may have originally been present in Word 4, but I suppose we'll see.
The ɰ in M4 is part of a process that affected word 1 as well, but it got elided anyway, so that's just water under the bridge.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [iɴˈqχoda] - [ˈqædɮa] - [inˈɮeɮa] - [ˈʔɘgə]
Word 1: two incorrect segments, and the qx is off
Word 2: the final vowel is off
Word 3: three incorrect segments
Word 4: the stressed vowel is off, but this is the only word where you've correctly reconstructed the final vowel. Weird, since the same process affected every word...
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm least certain about the final vowels of all four words, as well as the stressed vowels of Words 3 and 4.
Oh dear, sorry I had to burst your bubble.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæcˈcoθə] - [ˈjæɟɟəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈθɨccə]
Word 1: the pretonic vowel is missing something, and the three final consonants are incorrect (one is extra)
Word 2: the geminate is off in the same way as in word 1, and the stressed vowel is off in the same way as in word 1
Word 3: Essentially correct!
Word 4: the vowels are correct (though one is off in length)
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I feel like I have a very poor grasp of what's going on here. I suspect there's more going on with the final vowels, but I'm not sure what. The correspondences involving the palatal stops in Q are particularly baffling. My original assumption was that they were original to PQ, but for whatever reason, I can't shake the feeling that something akin to the so-called "Faroese Verschärfung" may have taken place in Q instead. Alternatively, the solution may be something that hasn't even occurred to me!
The final vowels are just as you reconstructed, Q lost them and then employed a few repair strategies. The palatal stops in Q can be explained by something that I feel should be called (but really isn't quite) metathesis causing their gemination, and their POAs are off for much less complex reasons. I'll explain more if you're still having trouble next round. I did a quick search for "Faroese Verschärfung" and nothing came up (literally just some pictures of buildings, no links). Would you mind sending me some way to look at that so I can let you know if I inadvertently employed it.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔáːzzèi̯dʒí] - [pói̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dzé]
Word 1: the first vowel is incorrect and the final affricate is incorrect
Word 2: the nucleus of the first syllable is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 The correspondences between R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] in Word 1, R [ð] : S [dʒ] : T [dʑ] also in Word 1, and R [ð] : S [dz] : T [dʑ] are currently giving me the most trouble. I'm also rather uncertain about the voicing of the initial consonants of Words 2 and 4.
In those correspondences, S will always give you the MOA and R the POA. Good job figuring out the voicing issue correctly.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâttʃì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [zə̀zîttʃè]
Word 1: all the vowels are correct, but none of them have the proper tone. One CV should be VC, and you're final consonant cluster is incorrect
Word 2: the final vowel has incorrect tone, otherwise correct
Word 3: the initial consonant and final vowel are incorrect, and the first vowel has incorrect tone
Word 4: identical comments as word 1
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 The sequences that are giving me the most trouble at the moment here are [âʃs] in Word 1 and [îʃs] in Word 4 in U vs. [àttʃ] in Word 1 and [ìttʃ] in Word 4 in V.
Both of these sequences simplified using assimilation, but in different ways.
Also, the tonal system of UV is much more akin to V than U, so that may help with your tonal problems.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jalú] - [ʀìːcə]
Word 1: the first two vowels are off
Word 2: the consonant is off (its suprasegmental is correct though)
Word 3: the first vowel is off, and the l is missing something (which explains one of its reflexes)
Word 4: the second consonant is off
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I definitely don't feel right about how close my version of YZ is to Y.
You made most of the right choices, Y is much more conservative than Z.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 AB [xae̯ˈlæci] - [ˈuɸce] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈei̯ce] 
CD [kɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudzre] - [ˈɟeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [kaːˈræci] - [ˈpurce] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈeːce]
Word 1: two consonants are off
Word 2: two consonants are off
Word 3: the vowel is off (the nonsyllabic portion is correct)
Word 4: the first vowel and consonant are off
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm really not sure what's going on in Word 2.
I will say that, at least for the initial, the opposite development happened in AB versus CD.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 EF [arˈtθi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈtθa]
GH [kaːˈri] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈroi̯m] - [jiˈɣɛj]

EFGH [karˈti] - [ˈtʁaj] - [eˈromi] - [jiˈtaj]
Word 1: the initial consonant is off
Word 2: only t is correct, the word should only have three segments (aside from stress)
Word 3: only m is correct, lots of problems here
Word 4: only i is correct, one extra segment (same one as in 2)
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]

J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]

K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

LM [ħoˈla] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

I, J, and K still don't feel like they obviously fit anywhere, and LM doesn't seem to be particularly close to, for instance, NO.
You're right about LM and NO being of different stock, but the answer is a bit simpler than you think.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 NO [iɴˈqχoda] - [ˈqædɮa] - [inˈɮeɮa] - [ˈʔɘgə]
PQ [tʃəsæcˈcoθə] - [ˈjæɟɟəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈθɨccə]

NOPQ [tisækˈkoθa] - [ˈgægəɮa] - [diˈɮeɬa] - [ˈθɨkə]
Word 1: the last two vowels are correct, and one other is only off in terms of length. Figuring out the structure of this word at this stage may prove difficult
Word 2: one vowel is off in terms of length, one consonant is partially correct, and all other segments are incorrect. You reconstructed an extra syllable
Word 3: the final vowel is off (the development with the final vowels is a bit uncommon) and there's an extra segment
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of length, and the initial consonant is incorrect (may be difficult to reconstruct, but the sound change is attested on the Index Diachronica, so it's unusual but plausible)
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 If NOPQ is a valid grouping, my reconstructions of NO and PQ surely must be off quite a bit. I'm really not sure what's going on here at this point.
This is a valid grouping, and something that might be helpful is that NO and PQ have much simpler syllable structures than NOPQ, and a lot of their differences are due to the differences in repair strategies they chose (most noticeable in word 1).
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 RST [ʔáːzzèi̯dʒí] - [pói̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâttʃì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [zə̀zîttʃè]

RSTUV [ʔɑ̀ɣzə̀záddʒì] - [ɸówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [qèzíddzè]
Before I begin, I feel obligated to mention that you need to go over the tonal systems of the daughters a bit more, as it's not just a simple LH tonal system. I won't comment on the tones below, but much of what you have is incorrect.
Word 1: three extra segments, one vowel is off in terms of length, and another ought to be a diphthong. One incorrect consonant as well
Word 2: two correct segments
Word 3: three incorrect segments
Word 4: two correct vowels, the other is extra. One extra consonant, and only one consonant is correct
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 Not to imply that I'm confident about any other part of this, but I'm positive that there's something I must be missing/getting wrong with regards to [q] : [z] in Word 4.
You are missing something. You are very right that it is a direct correspondence, but you ought to realize that the correspondence would be more accurately described as [q] : [zz]. Perhaps that will aid your reconstruction of UV, and I'll say more next time if necessary.
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jalú] - [ʀìːcə]

WXYZ [ʂaːzàtə] - [ʙóʂə] - [jalú] - [ʀìːkə]
Word 1: two vowels are incorrect
Word 2: one consonant is incorrect
Word 3: the first vowel is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I originally reconstructed WXYZ with stress, but given RSTUV, I've changed my mind.
You made the right choice.

I thought you did very well on this, and your reconstructions alerted me to a lot of alternatives. I can't wait to see your next attempt, and your ideas at the higher levels. Great job specifically on the groupings! You got all of them right except for the ones you deemed "isolates."
ɶʙ ɞʛ
greek
greek
Posts: 729
Joined: 02 Aug 2019 18:47

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

New AB: [xaə̯ˈðæCi] - [ˈuhCe] - [ˈʝøy̯m] - [ˈəi̯Ce]

C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

New CD: [xɑ:ˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈdjæ:m] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD: [xa:ˈðatʃi] – [ˈɸurtse] – [ˈðja:m] – [ˈai̯tse].

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

New EF: [arˈtʰi] – [ˈtʰʁa] – [iˈjumi] – [iˈkʰa]

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

New GH: [ka:ˈr̥i] – [twe] – [eˈrojm] – [jiˈxe]

EFGH: [karˈtʰi] – [tʰwa] – [eˈromj] – [jiˈkʰa]

A-H: [ka:ˈðatʰi] – [ˈtʰwerts] – [ˈðja:mj] – [ˈi:kse ~ ˈi:kʰe]

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK: [ʃmɑ̀:dwɑ̀t] - [ɲwɒ̀u̯d] - [dzéʎí] - [qə̀:q]
> J: ɲ > n, n d t > d t ∅.

L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

New LM: [qoˈlai] – [ˈlɪwi] – [ˈdæli] – [hɯ:]

IJKLM: [sqʷa:dwat] - [ɲləwdi] - [deli] - [qə:q]

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

New NO: [eqˈqodə] – [ˈqedɮə] – [inˈɮeɮə] – [ˈʔegə]

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

New PQ [tsə̯æi̯ˈʔoθə] – [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] – [dəˈʒehə] - [ˈθɨ:i̯ʔ]

NOPQ: [səæ̯ˈqotə] – [ˈqjəæ̯dɮə] – [ˈnɮeɬə] – [ˈhiə̯kə ~ ˈkiə̯kə]

I-Q: [sa:qˈdwatə] – [ˈqʎa:wdɮə] – [ˈndɮeʎə] – [ˈqə:qə]

R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]
U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

RST [ʔájzzèjdzí] - [bójlɤ̀] - [ʒèjlý] - [ɢèjdzé]
UV [áɣzzàʒtsí] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [ə́zzìʒtsé]

RSTUV: [áɣzzàʒtsí] – [βó:jlè] – [ʒaʒlu] – [ɣzèʒtsé]

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæ:ˈzɑθə] – [ˈhoʂə] – [ˈjeɫu] – [ˈhiːxə]


Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂa:rə̀tə] – [ʙóɖʷə] – [jaɫʷú] – [ʀ̀i:kʲə]:

WXYZ: [ʂaːˈzatə] – [ˈβo:ʈwə] – [ˈjalu] – [ˈɣiːkə]

R-Z: [ʂaɣzzaɣtʰi] – [βo:ʈle] – [jajlu] – [ɣziɣkʰe]
I-Q: [sa:qˈdwatə] – [ˈqʎa:wdɮə] – [ˈndɮeʎə] – [ˈqə:qə]
A-H: [ka:ˈðatʰi] – [ˈtʰwerts] – [ˈðja:mj] – [ˈi:kse ~ ˈi:kʰe]
All: [sa:kˈdza:tʰi] – [ˈtɬwe:rtɬe] – [ˈndɮelm] – [ˈgi:kʰe]
All to A-H: l > j, but tɬ > tʰ. Metathesis of sVkC > skVC > kVC. Voiced stops reduce: d g > ð 0.
All to I-Q: tɬwe: > kʷɬe: > kʷlja: > qʎa:, g kʰ > ɣ x > χ > q, also k > q adjacent to /a/, coda r > w; a: e: > wa ja
All to R-Z: a: i: > a:ə i:ə > a:ɣ i:ɣ > ʕaɣ jiɣ > aɣ ziɣ, m̩ > u

Also, is it possible you could provide the initial phonology?
Ratsawn
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 47
Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to ɶʙ ɞʛ's second attempt:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

New AB: [xaə̯ˈðæCi] - [ˈuhCe] - [ˈʝøy̯m] - [ˈəi̯Ce]
In your next guess I would recommend trying an actual phoneme for the C filler if you actually want to get the proto-form.
Word 1: one incorrect consonant, and C might be right
Word 2: could be correct, all depends on C
Word 3: the initial consonant is off
Word 4: the initial diphthong is close, but off. C might be right
In case it wasn't clear before, you're right that everywhere you've reconstructed C, it's the same phoneme.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

New CD: [xɑ:ˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈdjæ:m] - [ˈeːdze]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the initial is off, it should only be one segment
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 ABCD: [xa:ˈðatʃi] – [ˈɸurtse] – [ˈðja:m] – [ˈai̯tse].
Word 1: one consonant and one vowel are incorrect
Word 2: two consonants are incorrect
Word 3: only m is correct
Word 4: the final vowel is correct, the rest is incorrect
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

New EF: [arˈtʰi] – [ˈtʰʁa] – [iˈjumi] – [iˈkʰa]
Word 1: one segment is partially incorrect
Word 2: one segment is partially incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: one segment is partially incorrect
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

New GH: [ka:ˈr̥i] – [twe] – [eˈrojm] – [jiˈxe]
Word 1: one incorrect segment
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the initial vowel and final consonant are correct
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 EFGH: [karˈtʰi] – [tʰwa] – [eˈromj] – [jiˈkʰa]
Word 1: one incorrect consonant and one partially incorrect consonant
Word 2: one partially correct segment, one incorrect segment, and one missing segment
Word 3: m is correct. The structure is way off (hint: one daughter underwent metathesis)
Word 4: one partially incorrect segment, and the final vowel is off
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 A-H: [ka:ˈðatʰi] – [ˈtʰwerts] – [ˈðja:mj] – [ˈi:kse ~ ˈi:kʰe]
Word 1: the vowels are correct, one consonant is partially correct
Word 2: three correct segments, structure is totally off
Word 3: three correct segments, missing a syllable
Word 4: your second reconstruction is closer, but one segment is partially incorrect and it's missing a segment
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK: [ʃmɑ̀:dwɑ̀t] - [ɲwɒ̀u̯d] - [dzéʎí] - [qə̀:q]
Word 1: two extra segments and one incorrect segment
Word 2: one extra segment and one incorrect segment
Word 3: correct* (see comments below)
Word 4: one extra segment
All the vowels in words 1, 2, and 4 are missing something. In addition, IJK does not have tone.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 > J: ɲ > n, n d t > d t ∅.
The nasals in K are innovations, not retentions.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

New LM: [qoˈlai] – [ˈlɪwi] – [ˈdæli] – [hɯ:]
Word 1: three correct segments, one missing and one extra
Word 2: the stressed vowel is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 IJKLM: [sqʷa:dwat] - [ɲləwdi] - [deli] - [qə:q]
Word 1: the vowels and the final consonant are correct. Two extra segments
Word 2: one partially correct segment, two extra segments, one extra syllable
Word 3: the stressed vowel is off
Word 4: the final consonant is correct
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

New NO: [eqˈqodə] – [ˈqedɮə] – [inˈɮeɮə] – [ˈʔegə]
Word 1: the first syllable is all incorrect, one other segment is partially incorrect
Word 2: the stressed vowel is off
Word 3: two incorrect segments
Word 4: the stressed vowel is off
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

New PQ [tsə̯æi̯ˈʔoθə] – [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] – [dəˈʒehə] - [ˈθɨ:i̯ʔ]
Word 1: your triphthong needs an intervening consonant (which you correctly had in your last attempt), the vowels are all correct and the consonants are all incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the long vowel is correct, the word should be two syllables
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 NOPQ: [səæ̯ˈqotə] – [ˈqjəæ̯dɮə] – [ˈnɮeɬə] – [ˈhiə̯kə ~ ˈkiə̯kə]
Word 1: your initial consonant(s) and another consonant are incorrect. the pretonic vowel is also incorrect (should not be a diphthong, but a long vowel)
Word 2: the diphthong is incorrect (see comments to word 1) and the initial consonant(s) is/are incorrect
Word 3: the first consonant is incorrect
Word 4: the initial is incorrect, and the stressed vowel should be a long monophthong
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 I-Q: [sa:qˈdwatə] – [ˈqʎa:wdɮə] – [ˈndɮeʎə] – [ˈqə:qə]
Word 1: two extra segments, one correct segment
Word 2: no correct segments
Word 3: the initial should be an affricate and the other consonant should be a lateral, as you reconstructed. No correct segments though
Word 4: the consonants are incorrect
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 RST [ʔájzzèjdzí] - [bójlɤ̀] - [ʒèjlý] - [ɢèjdzé]
Word 1: the first vowel is off, and it should be long instead of a diphthong
Word 2: the first three segments are close, but off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial consonant is off
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 UV [áɣzzàʒtsí] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlú] - [ə́zzìʒtsé]
Word 1: break up the three consonants with a schwa, and one other consonant is off in terms of voicing
Word 2: correct* (see comments below)
Word 3: the initial consonant and the final vowel are incorrect
Word 4: one consonant is off in terms of voicing
UV has a three tone system, so the tone system should be identical to V, not to U.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 RSTUV: [áɣzzàʒtsí] – [βó:jlè] – [ʒaʒlu] – [ɣzèʒtsé]
Word 1: there should be an initial consonant, the first vowel should be long and the following consonant is extra, and one other segment is incorrect
Word 2: one extra segment, two other incorrect segments
Word 3: two correct segments
Word 4: the final syllable is correct
The tonal system is more akin to UV than to RST
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæ:ˈzɑθə] – [ˈhoʂə] – [ˈjeɫu] – [ˈhiːxə]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂa:rə̀tə] – [ʙóɖʷə] – [jaɫʷú] – [ʀ̀i:kʲə]:
Word 1: the first two vowels are incorrect (and they should be the same (except for length))
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the l needn't be dark, and the first vowel should be the same as the correct first two in word 1
Word 4: Correct! (I assume the tone should be on the vowel, not the trill)
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 WXYZ: [ʂaːˈzatə] – [ˈβo:ʈwə] – [ˈjalu] – [ˈɣiːkə]
Word 1: the first two vowels are incorrect
Word 2: two extra segments (the vowel length is one of them) and the initial consonant is off
Word 3: the first vowel is incorrect
Word 4: the first consonant is off
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 R-Z: [ʂaɣzzaɣtʰi] – [βo:ʈle] – [jajlu] – [ɣziɣkʰe]
Word 1: one consonant is partially incorrect, one vowel is incorrect and the wrong length, and the velar fricatives oughtn't be there
Word 2: the long vowel should be short, there's an extra consonant, and two other segments are incorrect
Word 3: the initial consonant and final vowel are incorrect, and there's an extra segment
Word 4: the initial is off, the first vowel should be long (and without the velar fricative), and the other consonant is partially incorrect
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 R-Z: [ʂaɣzzaɣtʰi] – [βo:ʈle] – [jajlu] – [ɣziɣkʰe]
I-Q: [sa:qˈdwatə] – [ˈqʎa:wdɮə] – [ˈndɮeʎə] – [ˈqə:qə]
A-H: [ka:ˈðatʰi] – [ˈtʰwerts] – [ˈðja:mj] – [ˈi:kse ~ ˈi:kʰe]
All: [sa:kˈdza:tʰi] – [ˈtɬwe:rtɬe] – [ˈndɮelm] – [ˈgi:kʰe]
Word 1: four correct segments, two partially correct segments
Word 2: two correct segments, one partially correct segment
Word 3: two correct segments, one partially correct segment
Word 4: the vowels are correct, one consonant is partially correct, one missing consonant
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 07 Jan 2021 22:45 Also, is it possible you could provide the initial phonology?
Unfortunately, I cannot. I will say this though: words 1 and 2 had a feature which behaved differently in all three of the major subgroups. In addition, words 1 and 4 had a separate feature that behaved differently in the three subgroups.
I added a few alternative reconstructions in this response, if there's a contradiction in any later guesses, it is likely due to this. Apologies.
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Second attempt:
Spoiler:
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Here's my response to Shimobaatar. No worries about taking your time. I was actually relieved you took so long because it gave me a chance to focus on finals and life without this hanging over my head for a bit.

And as for the difficulty, as I look over things, I do see how the forms got more divergent than is normally expected from this game. The next one I do will be easier for sure, and I expect to give away several answers when the players get stuck, so don't fret.
Oh, well then, I'm glad that worked out!
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 I thought you did very well on this, and your reconstructions alerted me to a lot of alternatives. I can't wait to see your next attempt, and your ideas at the higher levels. Great job specifically on the groupings! You got all of them right except for the ones you deemed "isolates."
Well, thank you! I did better than I thought I would, at least. Hopefully I can gradually improve in the coming rounds.

A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæki] - [ˈuɸke] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ke] 
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: only the third consonant is incorrect
Word 2: only the second consonant is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the diphthong and the consonant are incorrect
All your incorrect segments are only slightly off, so don't diverge too much in your next guess.
Hmm… perhaps [k], then?

C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: the initial consonant is off
Word 2: all the segments are correct, but some are in the incorrect order
Word 3: the nucleus is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
I'm not sure about [x] for Word 1 or [aː] for Word 3, but I suppose we'll see.
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 The initial consonant in word 1 is the same in CD as in the larger group which CD came from (I call it by the letters, but to avoid giving too much away, I'll say Proto-West).
Hmm, I'll try to keep this in mind for later.

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: Essentially correct! Though technically the two affricates came from different rules, compare with word two if you care to search for the real form.
Word 2: the initial (assuming you mean it as an affricate) is incorrect.
Word 3: Correct!
Word 3: the consonant(s) is/are incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm not positive at all about [tθ] anywhere, but we'll see how this goes.
It's not correct anywhere, but two of the places you've reconstructed it have the same proto-form, while the third comes from a different source.
Regarding Word 2, if you meant for [tθ] to represent an affricate in E, then that's what I intended it to represent in my first reconstruction of EF as well. 

Maybe I'm misreading what you've written, but based on your comments regarding Word 1 specifically and [tθ] in general, it sounds like Words 1 and 2 originally had the same consonant. I'm not confident about [t] for Words 1 and 2 and [k] for Word 4. Maybe they should be aspirated instead? Or perhaps I'm completely off-track. 

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈsəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: one consonant is incorrect
Word 2: one incorrect segment and one extra segment
Word 3: only m is correct, but everything else is very close
Word 4: only the unstressed vowel is correct, and there's an extra segment
So, it seems like the initial [e-] in my first reconstruction of Word 3 and the initial [j-] in my first reconstruction of Word 4 are incorrect, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment, so I've left them alone for now.

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃwɑ̰ːˈtwɑ̰t] - [ˈdwɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎi] - [ˈqə̰ːk]

There were a few possibilities I was considering for the vowels in Words 2 and 3, but I guess this is what I've settled on for now.

I'm almost entirely certain that I haven't reconstructed the original forms "responsible" for the I [ʃɸ] : J [s] : K [ʃn], I [ʋ] : J [tw] : K [ŋ], and I [ʋ] : J [dw] : K [ɲ] correspondences correctly. 
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 They are not "isolates" (I ended up with so many source languages in part because I wanted to avoid having isolates at any level), and I understand your frustration. You're most certainly overthinking this though. The answer is right under your nose, and it's way simpler than it seems.
Ah damn, I should have gone with my initial "instinct", I guess. I think I deleted my earlier attempts at reconstructing IJK, so I'll have to start over.

L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈlewi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: missing a segment
Word 2: the stressed vowel is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
I'm going with [e] for Word 2, at least for now, although there were a few other vowels I almost tried instead. 

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [iɴˈχɔdə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [inˈlelə] - [ˈʔigə]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: two incorrect segments, and the qx is off
Word 2: the final vowel is off
Word 3: three incorrect segments
Word 4: the stressed vowel is off, but this is the only word where you've correctly reconstructed the final vowel. Weird, since the same process affected every word...
I'm sure that whatever's going on with the final vowels will be painfully clear in hindsight, but at least for the time being, it remains a mystery to me. We've got N [ə] : O [a] in Words 1 and 2, N [Ø] : O [a] in Word 3, and N [ɯ] : O [a] in Word 4. I'm going to reconstruct a final [ə] for all four words and see how that goes. 

For Word 1, do I understand correctly that there are two incorrect segments, one of which is the final vowel, and, in addition to those two, [qχ] is also incorrect?
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm least certain about the final vowels of all four words, as well as the stressed vowels of Words 3 and 4.
Oh dear, sorry I had to burst your bubble.
Huh? Oh no, the way I see it, you've confirmed that I was right to be uncertain about all that!

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkoðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: the pretonic vowel is missing something, and the three final consonants are incorrect (one is extra)
Word 2: the geminate is off in the same way as in word 1, and the stressed vowel is off in the same way as in word 1
Word 3: Essentially correct!
Word 4: the vowels are correct (though one is off in length)
I'm replacing [θ] with [ð] for now because I can't think of anything else, but I don't believe that's correct.

For Word 2, I'm assuming for now that Q [ɟɟ] is related to P [d], but I'm afraid I have no clue what's going on with the two instances of [cc] in Q.
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I feel like I have a very poor grasp of what's going on here. I suspect there's more going on with the final vowels, but I'm not sure what. The correspondences involving the palatal stops in Q are particularly baffling. My original assumption was that they were original to PQ, but for whatever reason, I can't shake the feeling that something akin to the so-called "Faroese Verschärfung" may have taken place in Q instead. Alternatively, the solution may be something that hasn't even occurred to me!
The final vowels are just as you reconstructed, Q lost them and then employed a few repair strategies. The palatal stops in Q can be explained by something that I feel should be called (but really isn't quite) metathesis causing their gemination, and their POAs are off for much less complex reasons. I'll explain more if you're still having trouble next round. I did a quick search for "Faroese Verschärfung" and nothing came up (literally just some pictures of buildings, no links). Would you mind sending me some way to look at that so I can let you know if I inadvertently  employed it.
Since you mentioned that one of the vowels in Word 4 should be long, I initially thought that the geminate palatal stops in Q might have arisen due to something like [VːC] > [VCC]. However, especially since you mentioned POA, I'm now wondering if the diphthongs in P were present originally in PQ and caused the palatalization of following consonants. 

Ah, sorry, I should have included more of an explanation right from the start. For brevity's sake, I won't try to cover all of the details here, just what's most relevant. At some point in the history of Faroese, most of the long vowels that the language had inherited from Old Norse became diphthongs. Later on, the high off-glides of many such diphthongs underwent fortition when not followed by consonants, resulting in /Vi Vu/ > /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/. The Faroese reflexes of Old Norse ey "island" and róa "to row" are thus oyggj and rógva, respectively. This fortition process is known as "skerping" or "Verschärfung" or "sharpening". However, confusingly, these terms can also refer to the vowel changes that subsequently took place in /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/ sequences, yielding rógva /ˈɹɛkva/ with a front unrounded vowel in the stressed syllable, for instance. 

R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːʒʒèi̯dðí] - [pǿi̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dðé]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: the first vowel is incorrect and the final affricate is incorrect
Word 2: the nucleus of the first syllable is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
I'm not sure about the changes I've made to the vowels.
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 The correspondences between R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] in Word 1, R [ð] : S [dʒ] : T [dʑ] also in Word 1, and R [ð] : S [dz] : T [dʑ] are currently giving me the most trouble. I'm also rather uncertain about the voicing of the initial consonants of Words 2 and 4.
In those correspondences, S will always give you the MOA and R the POA. Good job figuring out the voicing issue correctly.
Oh, thank you! Hopefully I've interpreted this correctly, though!

U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃti] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃte]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: all the vowels are correct, but none of them have the proper tone. One CV should be VC, and you're final consonant cluster is incorrect
Word 2: the final vowel has incorrect tone, otherwise correct
Word 3: the initial consonant and final vowel are incorrect, and the first vowel has incorrect tone
Word 4: identical comments as word 1
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 The sequences that are giving me the most trouble at the moment here are [âʃs] in Word 1 and [îʃs] in Word 4 in U vs. [àttʃ] in Word 1 and [ìttʃ] in Word 4 in V.
Both of these sequences simplified using assimilation, but in different ways.
Also, the tonal system of UV is much more akin to V than U, so that may help with your tonal problems.
Thanks for your help! Now, I realize that what you said wasn't "the tonal system of UV is identical to that of V", but I suppose that's what I'm assuming, for this round at least.

Hopefully I've interpreted your comment about CV vs. VC correctly. As for the difficult sequences in Words 1 and 4, I'm not entirely sure why, but I'll try [ʃt] for now.

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
Oh wow, thank you! I honestly didn't expect to get any forms entirely correct, let alone all four for any given branch.

Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂaɐ̯rə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəɫú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: the first two vowels are off
Word 2: the consonant is off (its suprasegmental is correct though)
Word 3: the first vowel is off, and the l is missing something (which explains one of its reflexes)
Word 4: the second consonant is off
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the changes I've made to the vowels. Regarding the lateral in Word 3, I suppose I was assuming that its environment was enough to condition the shift to [w]. 

I'm definitely not sure about the labialized consonant in Word 2. I assume it's voiced and retroflex, so perhaps just [ɖʷ]?


AB [xae̯ˈlæki] - [ˈuɸke] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ke]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [kaːˈlæki] - [ˈɸurke] - [ˈjay̯m] - [ˈei̯ke]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: two consonants are off
Word 2: two consonants are off
Word 3: the vowel is off (the nonsyllabic portion is correct)
Word 4: the first vowel and consonant are off
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 I'm really not sure what's going on in Word 2.
I will say that, at least for the initial, the opposite development happened in AB versus CD.
Let's see how this goes, although I'm not particularly optimistic. 

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka] 
GH [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈsəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtre] - [iˈsoi̯m] - [iˈke]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: the initial consonant is off
Word 2: only t is correct, the word should only have three segments (aside from stress)
Word 3: only m is correct, lots of problems here
Word 4: only i is correct, one extra segment (same one as in 2)
I'm not sure what to do about "lots of problems", so I'm not sure if I'm any closer this time around. 

I definitely don't think that the [r] in Word 2 and the initial vowel in Word 3 are correct, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment. 

IJK [ʃwɑ̰ːˈtwɑ̰t] - [ˈdwɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎi] - [ˈqə̰ːk] 
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈlewi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃoːˈtot] - [ˈdøwde] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈqəːk]

The apparent correspondences between laterals and coronal stops are confusing me the most, I think. 

NO [iɴˈχɔdə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [inˈlelə] - [ˈʔigə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkoðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈðɨːkə]

NOPQ [tisæːˈqoða] - [ˈɢæːdlə] - [diˈleɬə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: the last two vowels are correct, and one other is only off in terms of length. Figuring out the structure of this word at this stage may prove difficult
Word 2: one vowel is off in terms of length, one consonant is partially correct, and all other segments are incorrect. You reconstructed an extra syllable
Word 3: the final vowel is off (the development with the final vowels is a bit uncommon) and there's an extra segment
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of length, and the initial consonant is incorrect (may be difficult to reconstruct, but the sound change is attested on the Index Diachronica, so it's unusual but plausible)
Judging by your comments on Word 3, I get the feeling I have no idea what's going on with these final vowels. I also have no idea which segment in Word 3 could be the extra one.

There's a lot that I'm not happy with here, but I'm just going to leave it for now. I know you brought up several inaccuracies which I haven't addressed, but in those cases, I'm currently out of ideas for what else I could try.

I tried looking through the Index Diachronica, but I suppose I'm not close enough yet to even know where the right place to look would be.
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 If NOPQ is a valid grouping, my reconstructions of NO and PQ surely must be off quite a bit. I'm really not sure what's going on here at this point.
This is a valid grouping, and something that might be helpful is that NO and PQ have much simpler syllable structures than NOPQ, and a lot of their differences are due to the differences in repair strategies they chose (most noticeable in word 1).
I'll try to keep this in mind for the future.

RST [ʔɑ́ːʒʒèi̯dðí] - [pǿi̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dðé] 
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃti] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃte]

RSTUV [ɑːɣzzài̯ti] - [ɸóy̯lɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [qzìte]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: three extra segments, one vowel is off in terms of length, and another ought to be a diphthong. One incorrect consonant as well
Word 2: two correct segments
Word 3: three incorrect segments
Word 4: two correct vowels, the other is extra. One extra consonant, and only one consonant is correct
I'm not sure what's going on with the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2. I'll try [oy̯] for now, but I'm not sure if I believe it myself. 

I'm also not sure about Word 4 in general. It seems like there should be a diphthong, but if two of the three monophthongs from my last reconstruction were correct, I suppose that can't be the case. I don't think I've addressed everything you mentioned, but this may be the best I can do at the moment. 
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Before I begin, I feel obligated to mention that you need to go over the tonal systems of the daughters a bit more, as it's not just a simple LH tonal system. I won't comment on the tones below, but much of what you have is incorrect.
I'll readily admit that tone is a weak point for me when it comes to this sort of thing - there are a few basic changes I'm comfortable and familiar with, but beyond those… 

I've based the tones here off of those in my current reconstructions of RST and UV. I can't be sure if any of what I have is correct, but hopefully I've gotten at least somewhat closer.
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: 01 Jan 2021 22:23 Not to imply that I'm confident about any other part of this, but I'm positive that there's something I must be missing/getting wrong with regards to [q] : [z] in Word 4.
You are missing something. You are very right that it is a direct correspondence, but you ought to realize that the correspondence would be more accurately described as [q] : [zz]. Perhaps that will aid your reconstruction of UV, and I'll say more next time if necessary.
Hmm…

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə] 
YZ [ʂaɐ̯rə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəɫú] - [ʀìːkə]

WXYZ [ʂaɐ̯zə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 04 Jan 2021 20:18 Word 1: two vowels are incorrect
Word 2: one consonant is incorrect
Word 3: the first vowel is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
I'm not sure how I feel about the vowels in Words 1 and 3, or the consonants in Word 2.



ABCD [kaːˈlæki] - [ˈɸurke] - [ˈjay̯m] - [ˈei̯ke] 
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtre] - [iˈsoi̯m] - [iˈke]

A-H [xaːˈlætˠi] - [ˈθr̩xe] - [iˈsoy̯m] - [ˈiːke]

OK, something has definitely gone wrong here. I don't really expect much, if any, of this to be right.

IJKLM [ʃoːˈtot] - [ˈdøwde] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈqəːk]
NOPQ [tisæːˈqoða] - [ˈɢæːdlə] - [diˈleɬə] - [ˈðɨːkə]

I-Q [tisaːˈtˤoða] - [ˈdˤœːlde] - [diˈlæɬi] - [ˈrɨːkə]

My thoughts on A-H apply here as well. I never expected [Cˠ] or [Cˤ] to be the correct explanation for these apparent coronal-dorsal correspondences (I'm sure the actual explanation is that I've screwed up my lower-level reconstructions), but now that I've noticed that IJKLM has a coronal where NOPQ has a uvular in Words 1 and 2, but IJKLM has a uvular where NOPQ has a coronal in Word 4, I'm more certain than ever that I've completely gone off the rails. I don't have a very good reason for the initial consonant of Word 4.

RSTUV [ɑːɣzzài̯ti] - [ɸóy̯lɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [qzìte]
WXYZ [ʂaɐ̯zə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂaːzzæ̀ti] - [ɸóy̯ɭɤ] - [jælú] - [qrìːtˠe]

I suppose I'm falling back on [tˠ] here as well. Again, I'm sure these kinds of correspondences are because I've messed up at a number of points leading up to this. Hopefully things will become a bit more clear in the next round.

I don't know how confident I feel about assuming [æ] > [ai̯] : [ə] either.




A-H [xaːˈlætˠi] - [ˈθr̩xe] - [iˈsoy̯m] - [ˈiːke]
I-Q [tisaːˈtˤoða] - [ˈdˤœːlde] - [diˈlæɬi] - [ˈrɨːkə]
R-Z [ʂaːzzæ̀ti] - [ɸóy̯ɭɤ] - [jælú] - [qrìːtˠe]

A-Z [ʂaːˈðæti] - [ˈθʷoy̯lle] - [jiˈɬælm] - [ˈqriːke]

I originally wasn't even planning to attempt to reconstruct the original forms this round, but I figured that I might as well.

I'd been neglecting to really compare different branches before now, so I was surprised to see some apparent similarities between my reconstructions of A-H, I-Q, and R-Z, although whether or not those similarities are meaningful or correct remains to be seen. 

I seem to have done the worst with Words 2 and 3. My guesses for the original forms here make no sense in the context of the forms I've reconstructed for A-H, I-Q, and R-Z. Words 1 and 4 aren't that much better off, probably.
Ratsawn
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 47
Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's second attempt:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæki] - [ˈuɸke] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ke]
The diphthong on word four is correct now, but the incorrect consonants (the k's here) are still incorrect. Your previous guess was closer.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the vowel quality is only very slightly off (hint: look at D and think of GA English)
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure about [x] for Word 1 or [aː] for Word 3, but I suppose we'll see.
X is correct! A disproportionate amount of fortification happened in this language family, so as you try to solve other problems, this might be useful to keep in mind. I'm sure you'll get the vowel of word 3 correct on your next guess.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Maybe I'm misreading what you've written, but based on your comments regarding Word 1 specifically and [tθ] in general, it sounds like Words 1 and 2 originally had the same consonant. I'm not confident about [t] for Words 1 and 2 and [k] for Word 4. Maybe they should be aspirated instead? Or perhaps I'm completely off-track.
You had the right idea here!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈsəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Word 1: the second consonant is incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the first consonant is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 So, it seems like the initial [e-] in my first reconstruction of Word 3 and the initial [j-] in my first reconstruction of Word 4 are incorrect, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment, so I've left them alone for now.
I think it's funny that you've said that, because both of those segments are alternative reconstructions. I marked them as correct, but you can try some other things if you want.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃwɑ̰ːˈtwɑ̰t] - [ˈdwɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎi] - [ˈqə̰ːk]
Word 1: one extra consonant, two others are off
Word 2: one extra consonant, one other is off
Word 3: one extra segment
Word 4: one extra segment, one of the other segments should be where the extra one is
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 There were a few possibilities I was considering for the vowels in Words 2 and 3, but I guess this is what I've settled on for now.
Word 3 could use some tweaking, but good choices otherwise.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm almost entirely certain that I haven't reconstructed the original forms "responsible" for the I [ʃɸ] : J s : K [ʃn], I [ʋ] : J [tw] : K [ŋ], and I [ʋ] : J [dw] : K [ɲ] correspondences correctly.
You've certainly come a lot closer than I expected. The phonation on the vowels became glottalization, which created the nasals through rhinoglottophilia. I'm impressed that you figured that out. However, there's one other unconventional sound change at work (attested, don't worry) which accounts for all the extra segments you reconstructed. Good luck.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈlewi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the stressed vowel is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm going with [e] for Word 2, at least for now, although there were a few other vowels I almost tried instead.
This vowel has two correct features (out of the three: roundness, fronting, height).
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [iɴˈχɔdə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [inˈlelə] - [ˈʔigə]
Word 1: the stressed vowel and the two consonants preceding it are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the consonants are incorrect
Word 4: the stressed vowel is incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm sure that whatever's going on with the final vowels will be painfully clear in hindsight, but at least for the time being, it remains a mystery to me. We've got N [ə] : O [a] in Words 1 and 2, N [Ø] : O [a] in Word 3, and N [ɯ] : O [a] in Word 4. I'm going to reconstruct a final [ə] for all four words and see how that goes.
The later two correspondences you've mentioned here were both conditioned by the surrounding consonants, and the loss of central vowels afterward resulted in the first correspondence. Schwa was the correct proto-form, so I suppose I can tell you what happened. In word 4 in N, the schwa was pulled toward the velum by the preceding velar. In word 3 in N, the presence of a voiceless consonant caused the schwa to be deleted. After that, central vowels were lost in O, moving the schwa to [a] (hint: this happened to another central vowel).
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 For Word 1, do I understand correctly that there are two incorrect segments, one of which is the final vowel, and, in addition to those two, [qχ] is also incorrect?
I'm sorry I should've been more clear. I wanted to avoid confusion over the number because I never know whether to note an affricate as one segment or two. There were three incorrect segments then, the first two consonants and the final vowel. That said, I'm not sure why you changed the stressed vowel, it was correct in your previous reconstruction. Also, [qx] was closer to the original form than [x].
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Huh? Oh no, the way I see it, you've confirmed that I was right to be uncertain about all that!
I think I read that you were "at least certain of the final vowels" rather than "least certain...." Whoops.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkoðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial consonant is incorrect (may be difficult to reconstruct)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm replacing [θ] with [ð] for now because I can't think of anything else, but I don't believe that's correct.
It's not, but this change in Q is exceedingly difficult now that I look at it. It was attested in a single language in the Index Diachronica, so I put it in with a subsequent change as well. I'd lean more on more foreign cognates than on Q when reconstructing it. If you don't get it next time, I'll just tell you.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 For Word 2, I'm assuming for now that Q [ɟɟ] is related to P [d], but I'm afraid I have no clue what's going on with the two instances of [cc] in Q.
All these correspondences ([ɟɟ]:[d], [cc]:[θ], [cc]:[Ø]) are a result of the same two sound changes (the third one also had a third sound change).
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Since you mentioned that one of the vowels in Word 4 should be long, I initially thought that the geminate palatal stops in Q might have arisen due to something like [VːC] > [VCC]. However, especially since you mentioned POA, I'm now wondering if the diphthongs in P were present originally in PQ and caused the palatalization of following consonants.
All of this is correct. [V:C] became [VCC], but only after the change where the diphthongs palatalized the following consonants. So together, Q went through 1) palatalization 2) diphthong smoothing 3) gemination/long vowel loss.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Ah, sorry, I should have included more of an explanation right from the start. For brevity's sake, I won't try to cover all of the details here, just what's most relevant. At some point in the history of Faroese, most of the long vowels that the language had inherited from Old Norse became diphthongs. Later on, the high off-glides of many such diphthongs underwent fortition when not followed by consonants, resulting in /Vi Vu/ > /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/. The Faroese reflexes of Old Norse ey "island" and róa "to row" are thus oyggj and rógva, respectively. This fortition process is known as "skerping" or "Verschärfung" or "sharpening". However, confusingly, these terms can also refer to the vowel changes that subsequently took place in /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/ sequences, yielding rógva /ˈɹɛkva/ with a front unrounded vowel in the stressed syllable, for instance.
That's fascinating, especially considering that I did a similar change (the environment and the affected sounds are a bit different) in another language of this family. Good luck finding it.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːʒʒèi̯dðí] - [pǿi̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dðé]
Word 1: the geminate and the affricate are incorrect
Word 2: Correct! (technically the whole diphthong is round, but that's getting quite nitpicky)
Word 3: Correct! (the l shouldn't be dark though)
Word 4: the affricate is incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure about the changes I've made to the vowels.
Good choices.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Oh, thank you! Hopefully I've interpreted this correctly, though!
I'm so sorry about my comments. I think I had it in my head that when I said POA, that dental and alveolar would be viewed as one unit. The affricate you've reconstructed here as [dð] should be [dz]. My comments were absolutely terrible, sorry for the confusion.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃti] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃte]
Word 1: the last consonant is off
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the last consonant is off (same as word 1)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Thanks for your help! Now, I realize that what you said wasn't "the tonal system of UV is identical to that of V", but I suppose that's what I'm assuming, for this round at least.
That's what I should've said. They are identical. Man, I'm having a lot of clarity issues this time around.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Hopefully I've interpreted your comment about CV vs. VC correctly. As for the difficult sequences in Words 1 and 4, I'm not entirely sure why, but I'll try [ʃt] for now.
You have! And [ʃt] is so close, only off in the second segment.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂaɐ̯rə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəɫú] - [ʀìːkə]
Word 1: the first two vowels are off (see comments)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the l should have a different "-ization", not velarization/pharyngealization, and that first vowel is off.
Word 4: there should be an extra feature on k, think about what conditioned changes in the daughters
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the changes I've made to the vowels. Regarding the lateral in Word 3, I suppose I was assuming that its environment was enough to condition the shift to [w].
The incorrect vowels should all be the same (and the first of word 1 should be long as well). Hopefully my comments above on the lateral's secondary articulation are enough to get it right. It's pretty darn simple.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm definitely not sure about the labialized consonant in Word 2. I assume it's voiced and retroflex, so perhaps just [ɖʷ]?
Good choice!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 AB [xae̯ˈlæki] - [ˈuɸke] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ke]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [kaːˈlæki] - [ˈɸurke] - [ˈjay̯m] - [ˈei̯ke]
Word 1: not sure why you changed the initial. Also, the other two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: Correct! (once again, not being too picky with diphthongs: [æy̯] is correct)
Word 4: the final vowel is correct
Not too far off anywhere
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka] 
GH [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈsəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtre] - [iˈsoi̯m] - [iˈke]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: missing a segment
Word 3: the first consonant and the diphthong are incorrect
Word 4: missing a segment
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure what to do about "lots of problems", so I'm not sure if I'm any closer this time around.
You are much closer this time, just a couple tweaks needed.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I definitely don't think that the [r] in Word 2 and the initial vowel in Word 3 are correct, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment.
You're in luck, because both of those are correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 IJK [ʃwɑ̰ːˈtwɑ̰t] - [ˈdwɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎi] - [ˈqə̰ːk] 
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈlewi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃoːˈtot] - [ˈdøwde] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈqəːk]
Word 1: the vowels are off in quality, the first and last consonants are missing something, and the other consonant is incorrect
Word 2: two incorrect segments, one extra segment, and one segment is missing something
Word 3: the initial consonant is off
Word 4: the vowel is off in quality and the consonants are incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 The apparent correspondences between laterals and coronal stops are confusing me the most, I think.
Those IJK coronal stops that match the LM laterals in words 1 and 2 shouldn't be there. See above for my comments on the unusual sound change that gave rise to them.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 NO [iɴˈχɔdə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [inˈlelə] - [ˈʔigə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkoðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈðɨːkə]

NOPQ [tisæːˈqoða] - [ˈɢæːdlə] - [diˈleɬə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
Word 1: one extra segment, the final vowel and the consonants are incorrect, one too many syllables
Word 2: the initial consonant is off (very close though)
Word 3: I don't want to cause confusion with my comments, so I'll be clear. It should be two syllables and start with an affricate. The stressed vowel and everything after it is correct
Word 4: the initial consonant is incorrect. If you don't get it next time, I'll give it away
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Judging by your comments on Word 3, I get the feeling I have no idea what's going on with these final vowels. I also have no idea which segment in Word 3 could be the extra one.
Well you got most of them right (hint: they're all the same). And I've made it pretty this time here what's extra.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 There's a lot that I'm not happy with here, but I'm just going to leave it for now. I know you brought up several inaccuracies which I haven't addressed, but in those cases, I'm currently out of ideas for what else I could try.

I tried looking through the Index Diachronica, but I suppose I'm not close enough yet to even know where the right place to look would be.
You were pretty close with all your guesses (word 1 is still kinda far off, but you got most of the vowels), so whatever you did try was smart. It might be tough to find that change without knowing the proto-form or being all that certain of some of the lower-level groupings' proto-forms.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 RST [ʔɑ́ːʒʒèi̯dðí] - [pǿi̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dðé] 
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃti] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃte]

RSTUV [ɑːɣzzài̯ti] - [ɸóy̯lɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [qzìte]
Word 1: one extra segment, one missing segment, and the final consonant is incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant is off, and the nucleus should be a long vowel
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of length, the final consonant is incorrect, and the initial is incorrect (hint: it should be a geminate)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure what's going on with the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2. I'll try [oy̯] for now, but I'm not sure if I believe it myself.
It's not too far off.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm also not sure about Word 4 in general. It seems like there should be a diphthong, but if two of the three monophthongs from my last reconstruction were correct, I suppose that can't be the case. I don't think I've addressed everything you mentioned, but this may be the best I can do at the moment.
I hope my comments above will clear your uncertainties.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'll readily admit that tone is a weak point for me when it comes to this sort of thing - there are a few basic changes I'm comfortable and familiar with, but beyond those… 

I've based the tones here off of those in my current reconstructions of RST and UV. I can't be sure if any of what I have is correct, but hopefully I've gotten at least somewhat closer.
I'm totally in the same boat as you. Your tonal guesses here were all correct. I pretty much only worried myself with tonogenesis and some very macro changes, such as shifts in the entire paradigm. Like you, I'm not very adept at these types of changes, so you were right to think simple.

Something I feel is worth saying: I ended up with a lot of [z]s in the daughter languages of this family. A major proportion of those are due to the reverse of a common process in Indo-European languages, one that I found was equally common the other way crosslinguistically.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə] 
YZ [ʂaɐ̯rə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəɫú] - [ʀìːkə]

WXYZ [ʂaɐ̯zə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Word 1: the first two vowels are off (should be the same as YZ when you get them correct)
Word 2: the second consonant is incorrect
Word 3: the first vowel is off (once again, same as the correct YZ vowel)
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure how I feel about the vowels in Words 1 and 3, or the consonants in Word 2.
Those incorrect vowels are the same as each other, the same as YZ, and the same as a daughter lang of YZ.

In word two, you're right about the medial consonant being retroflex and a stop, but the other two features of it are incorrect (voicing and secondary articulation).
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 ABCD [kaːˈlæki] - [ˈɸurke] - [ˈjay̯m] - [ˈei̯ke] 
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtre] - [iˈsoi̯m] - [iˈke]

A-H [xaːˈlætˠi] - [ˈθr̩xe] - [iˈsoy̯m] - [ˈiːke]
Word 1: the first syllable is correct, the final vowel is correct, and another consonant is partially correct
Word 2: the final vowel is correct (there should be a vowel in here, lean more towards ABCD for your reconstruction of the word)
Word 3: only m is correct. When ABCD became monosyllabic in this word, it wasn't the initial syllable that fell off, but the initial consonant of the final syllable that elided away and left a diphthong in its place
Word 4: there should be an initial consonant
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 OK, something has definitely gone wrong here. I don't really expect much, if any, of this to be right.
Don't beat yourself up. You did very well on words 1 and 4.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 IJKLM [ʃoːˈtot] - [ˈdøwde] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈqəːk]
NOPQ [tisæːˈqoða] - [ˈɢæːdlə] - [diˈleɬə] - [ˈðɨːkə]

I-Q [tisaːˈtˤoða] - [ˈdˤœːlde] - [diˈlæɬi] - [ˈrɨːkə]
Word 1: one extra syllable (including two extra segments), two incorrect consonants and one in the wrong place, all the vowels are incorrect
Word 2: one correct segment, but it's in the wrong place
Word 3: the final vowel is correct, hopefully cleaning up NOPQ will aid with the rest of this word
Word 4: the initial is incorrect, and the other consonant is missing something
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 My thoughts on A-H apply here as well. I never expected [Cˠ] or [Cˤ] to be the correct explanation for these apparent coronal-dorsal correspondences (I'm sure the actual explanation is that I've screwed up my lower-level reconstructions), but now that I've noticed that IJKLM has a coronal where NOPQ has a uvular in Words 1 and 2, but IJKLM has a uvular where NOPQ has a coronal in Word 4, I'm more certain than ever that I've completely gone off the rails. I don't have a very good reason for the initial consonant of Word 4.
The actual explanation is that you've screwed up your lower-level reconstructions. Hopefully I can provide some insight. I don't want to give too much away, but [Cˤ] is a fantastic idea. It doesn't apply to the correspondences you placed it in here, but it appears four times in I-Q. The [Cˤ] idea is something you should always have in the back of your mind in this language family, as it's somewhat of a theme, the idea I had that birthed this challenge. Hopefully I haven't said too much or too little.

As for the coronal-uvular correspondences, I can tell you that word 1 has a coronal in IJKLM and a uvular in NOPQ, but not the ones you reconstructed. Word 2 is the same. Word 4 has no such correspondence. As a matter of fact, both reflexes of the word 4 initial have the same POA, and it is not uvular or coronal.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 RSTUV [ɑːɣzzài̯ti] - [ɸóy̯lɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [qzìte]
WXYZ [ʂaɐ̯zə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂaːzzæ̀ti] - [ɸóy̯ɭɤ] - [jælú] - [qrìːtˠe]
Word 1: the first two vowels are off in terms of quality
Word 2: only the final vowel is correct
Word 3: the second consonant is correct (lean more on RSTUV here)
Word 4: the vowels are correct (lean more on WXYZ here)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I suppose I'm falling back on [tˠ] here as well. Again, I'm sure these kinds of correspondences are because I've messed up at a number of points leading up to this. Hopefully things will become a bit more clear in the next round.
Your analysis here is correct, that your reconstructions of lower forms are once again creating much more difficulty than there should be. Something that may help the whole affair is to think about Spanish. Latin 'multus' > 'muito' > 'mucho'. Those latter two forms, and the sound change associated with them, may help.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I don't know how confident I feel about assuming [æ] > [ai̯] : [ə] either.
Be more confident! The ash here is only very slightly off from the real form.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 A-H [xaːˈlætˠi] - [ˈθr̩xe] - [iˈsoy̯m] - [ˈiːke]
I-Q [tisaːˈtˤoða] - [ˈdˤœːlde] - [diˈlæɬi] - [ˈrɨːkə]
R-Z [ʂaːzzæ̀ti] - [ɸóy̯ɭɤ] - [jælú] - [qrìːtˠe]

A-Z [ʂaːˈðæti] - [ˈθʷoy̯lle] - [jiˈɬælm] - [ˈqriːke]
Word 1: the first and last vowels are correct, as is the last consonant. A segment is missing
Word 2: the diphthong should be a short monophthong and the final vowel is correct
Word 3: two correct segments, but only one is in the right place. The stress is also supposed to be on the first syllable, and there are one too many segments
Word 4: the vowels are correct, and the last consonant is correct as well. One extra segment and one missing segment
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I originally wasn't even planning to attempt to reconstruct the original forms this round, but I figured that I might as well.

I'd been neglecting to really compare different branches before now, so I was surprised to see some apparent similarities between my reconstructions of A-H, I-Q, and R-Z, although whether or not those similarities are meaningful or correct remains to be seen. 

I seem to have done the worst with Words 2 and 3. My guesses for the original forms here make no sense in the context of the forms I've reconstructed for A-H, I-Q, and R-Z. Words 1 and 4 aren't that much better off, probably.
I'm glad you reconstructed this. You're surprisingly close! You're right that words 2 and 3 are the furthest off, but that is mostly because your reconstructions of them in lower levels were also not that great. If I can direct you, the bad reconstructions that are throwing you the furthest off are A-H words 2 and 3. For word three's structure (I'll comment on 2's structure another time), look at R-Z. Every segment in R-Z has an exact correspondence in A-Z, but it lost one (which one is not that difficult to figure out).

Hopefully all this will inform your next guess, and hopefully it won't take me so long to respond next time.
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Third attempt:
Spoiler:
A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæɟi] - [ˈuɸɟe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ɟe]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 The diphthong on word four is correct now, but the incorrect consonants (the k's here) are still incorrect. Your previous guess was closer.
So neither [c] nor [k], but [c] was closer. Since both of this consonant's apparent reflexes are voiceless, I don't know how I feel about [ɟ], but that's what I'll go with for now. 

C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the vowel quality is only very slightly off (hint: look at D and think of GA English)
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure about [x] for Word 1 or [aː] for Word 3, but I suppose we'll see.
X is correct! A disproportionate amount of fortification happened in this language family, so as you try to solve other problems, this might be useful to keep in mind. I'm sure you'll get the vowel of word 3 correct on your next guess.
Ah, thanks, I'll do my best to remember! I also appreciate the hint you've given about Word 3's vowel.

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Maybe I'm misreading what you've written, but based on your comments regarding Word 1 specifically and [tθ] in general, it sounds like Words 1 and 2 originally had the same consonant. I'm not confident about [t] for Words 1 and 2 and [k] for Word 4. Maybe they should be aspirated instead? Or perhaps I'm completely off-track.
You had the right idea here!
Oh, great! Thanks for your feedback!

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈr̥i] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈr̥əi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the second consonant is incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the first consonant is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
Hmm, so the second consonant in Word 1 isn't [r] or [θ], and the first consonant in Word 3 isn't [r] or [s]. The only thing I can think of right now is to try [r̥] for both.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 So, it seems like the initial [e-] in my first reconstruction of Word 3 and the initial [j-] in my first reconstruction of Word 4 are incorrect, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment, so I've left them alone for now.
I think it's funny that you've said that, because both of those segments are alternative reconstructions. I marked them as correct, but you can try some other things if you want.
Oh, I must have misread or misinterpreted some of your comments last time, then! I think I'll just leave them as they are for now, but I may revisit them later on if doing so seems like it might be beneficial. 

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: one extra consonant, two others are off
Word 2: one extra consonant, one other is off
Word 3: one extra segment
Word 4: one extra segment, one of the other segments should be where the extra one is
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 There were a few possibilities I was considering for the vowels in Words 2 and 3, but I guess this is what I've settled on for now.
Word 3 could use some tweaking, but good choices otherwise.
For Word 3, I feel like I should get rid of either [-i] or [-i̯-]. I'll try [-i̯-] this round.

For Word 4, I don't know how I feel about what I've done, but hopefully I've interpreted your comments correctly. 
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm almost entirely certain that I haven't reconstructed the original forms "responsible" for the I [ʃɸ] : J s : K [ʃn], I [ʋ] : J [tw] : K [ŋ], and I [ʋ] : J [dw] : K [ɲ] correspondences correctly.
You've certainly come a lot closer than I expected. The phonation on the vowels became glottalization, which created the nasals through rhinoglottophilia. I'm impressed that you figured that out. However, there's one other unconventional sound change at work (attested, don't worry) which accounts for all the extra segments you reconstructed. Good luck.
Well, thank you! I'm always a fan of rhinoglottophilia.

I'm now getting the feeling that the [t] and [d] in Words 1 and 2 in J may be innovations. Actually, looking at your comments on IJKLM below, that seems to be the case. 

Based on what you've said about two other consonants being off in Word 1 and one other consonant being off in Word 2, I'm thinking that [w] may not be exactly what I'm looking for. But is what I'm actually looking for a single consonant that appears three times, or are there 2-3 different consonants that I've failed to differentiate and incorrectly lumped together as [w]? Hmm… Based on I, I might just try [ʋ] for now.

L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the stressed vowel is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm going with [e] for Word 2, at least for now, although there were a few other vowels I almost tried instead.
This vowel has two correct features (out of the three: roundness, fronting, height).
Ah, thank you! Let's try [ø].

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [iqˈqodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɬˈɬeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the stressed vowel and the two consonants preceding it are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the consonants are incorrect
Word 4: the stressed vowel is incorrect
You mentioned below that the final vowel in Word 3 was lost in N because the preceding consonant was voiceless, and although you didn't necessarily mean that the consonant in question was voiceless in NO, I'm going to try [ɬ], since [l] and [ɮ] were incorrect. 

You also mentioned below that, for Word 1, the voiceless uvular affricate was closer to the original form than the fricative, so I might just try [q] for now, although I don't currently have an explanation in mind for why it developed differently in Words 1 and 2 if it's actually correct. 

I'm feeling a bit stumped by N [NC] : O [CC] in Words 1 and 3. The nasals being present in NO and then fully assimilating to following consonants in O felt like it made the most sense to me, but after my last two attempts, I'm no longer so sure about that. [CC] > [NC] doesn't quite feel right, especially if C is voiceless, but that's what I'll go with for now. 
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm sure that whatever's going on with the final vowels will be painfully clear in hindsight, but at least for the time being, it remains a mystery to me. We've got N [ə] : O [a] in Words 1 and 2, N [Ø] : O [a] in Word 3, and N [ɯ] : O [a] in Word 4. I'm going to reconstruct a final [ə] for all four words and see how that goes.
The later two correspondences you've mentioned here were both conditioned by the surrounding consonants, and the loss of central vowels afterward resulted in the first correspondence. Schwa was the correct proto-form, so I suppose I can tell you what happened. In word 4 in N, the schwa was pulled toward the velum by the preceding velar. In word 3 in N, the presence of a voiceless consonant caused the schwa to be deleted. After that, central vowels were lost in O, moving the schwa to [a] (hint: this happened to another central vowel).
Oh, interesting! Thank you!
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 For Word 1, do I understand correctly that there are two incorrect segments, one of which is the final vowel, and, in addition to those two, [qχ] is also incorrect?
I'm sorry I should've been more clear. I wanted to avoid confusion over the number because I never know whether to note an affricate as one segment or two. There were three incorrect segments then, the first two consonants and the final vowel. That said, I'm not sure why you changed the stressed vowel, it was correct in your previous reconstruction. Also, [qx] was closer to the original form than [x].
Ah, understood. As for why I changed the stressed vowel, I knew that the second consonant and the final vowel were off, but I wasn't sure what the remaining incorrect segment was, and so I seem to have chosen the wrong one.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Huh? Oh no, the way I see it, you've confirmed that I was right to be uncertain about all that!
I think I read that you were "at least certain of the final vowels" rather than "least certain...." Whoops.
Oh, no worries of course!

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkodðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial consonant is incorrect (may be difficult to reconstruct)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm replacing [θ] with [ð] for now because I can't think of anything else, but I don't believe that's correct.
It's not, but this change in Q is exceedingly difficult now that I look at it. It was attested in a single language in the Index Diachronica, so I put it in with a subsequent change as well. I'd lean more on more foreign cognates than on Q when reconstructing it. If you don't get it next time, I'll just tell you.
I think I'm just going to try [ʔ] because of NO.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 For Word 2, I'm assuming for now that Q [ɟɟ] is related to P [d], but I'm afraid I have no clue what's going on with the two instances of [cc] in Q.
All these correspondences ([ɟɟ]:[d], [cc]:[θ], [cc]:[Ø]) are a result of the same two sound changes (the third one also had a third sound change).
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Since you mentioned that one of the vowels in Word 4 should be long, I initially thought that the geminate palatal stops in Q might have arisen due to something like [VːC] > [VCC]. However, especially since you mentioned POA, I'm now wondering if the diphthongs in P were present originally in PQ and caused the palatalization of following consonants.
All of this is correct. [V:C] became [VCC], but only after the change where the diphthongs palatalized the following consonants. So together, Q went through 1) palatalization 2) diphthong smoothing 3) gemination/long vowel loss.
Oh, interesting!

For the third consonant in Word 1, I guess I'll try [k] because of Word 4. 

As for the fourth consonant behind P [θ] : Q [j], though, it's been confirmed that it's neither [θ] nor [ð], but I'm kind of at a loss for what it could actually be. Other instances of [j] in Q correspond to either [j] or [ʒ] in P, and there are no other instances of [θ] in P. Voiceless consonants like [s], [ç], and [k] seem to be lost between vowels in P, so I'm going to assume that this one was originally voiced. If that's correct, though, I'm not sure why it ended up being devoiced. Whatever this consonant is, it seems to correspond to [d] in NO, but [d] is preserved in Word 2 in P. I don't think it's correct, but I'm going to put [dð] for this round because I can't think of anything else. 
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Ah, sorry, I should have included more of an explanation right from the start. For brevity's sake, I won't try to cover all of the details here, just what's most relevant. At some point in the history of Faroese, most of the long vowels that the language had inherited from Old Norse became diphthongs. Later on, the high off-glides of many such diphthongs underwent fortition when not followed by consonants, resulting in /Vi Vu/ > /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/. The Faroese reflexes of Old Norse ey "island" and róa "to row" are thus oyggj and rógva, respectively. This fortition process is known as "skerping" or "Verschärfung" or "sharpening". However, confusingly, these terms can also refer to the vowel changes that subsequently took place in /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/ sequences, yielding rógva /ˈɹɛkva/ with a front unrounded vowel in the stressed syllable, for instance.
That's fascinating, especially considering that I did a similar change (the environment and the affected sounds are a bit different) in another language of this family. Good luck finding it.
Haha, thank you!

R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the geminate and the affricate are incorrect
Word 2: Correct! (technically the whole diphthong is round, but that's getting quite nitpicky)
Word 3: Correct! (the l shouldn't be dark though)
Word 4: the affricate is incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure about the changes I've made to the vowels.
Good choices.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Oh, thank you! Hopefully I've interpreted this correctly, though!
I'm so sorry about my comments. I think I had it in my head that when I said POA, that dental and alveolar would be viewed as one unit. The affricate you've reconstructed here as [dð] should be [dz]. My comments were absolutely terrible, sorry for the confusion.
Oh, no worries, thank you for clarifying! 

In light of this, I'll similarly adjust the geminate in Word 1 to [zz]. I think that's what I had originally, and I don't believe you explicitly identified it as incorrect last time, but since I mentioned the R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] correspondence alongside the correspondences between the various reflexes of [dz], it looks like I may have misinterpreted your response about taking the MOA from S and the POA from R as applying to R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] as well.

U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the last consonant is off
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the last consonant is off (same as word 1)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Thanks for your help! Now, I realize that what you said wasn't "the tonal system of UV is identical to that of V", but I suppose that's what I'm assuming, for this round at least.
That's what I should've said. They are identical. Man, I'm having a lot of clarity issues this time around.
Oh, no problem! I'm glad to know I assumed correctly.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Hopefully I've interpreted your comment about CV vs. VC correctly. As for the difficult sequences in Words 1 and 4, I'm not entirely sure why, but I'll try [ʃt] for now.
You have! And [ʃt] is so close, only off in the second segment.
Hmm… maybe [ts], then?

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the first two vowels are off (see comments)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the l should have a different "-ization", not velarization/pharyngealization, and that first vowel is off.
Word 4: there should be an extra feature on k, think about what conditioned changes in the daughters
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the changes I've made to the vowels. Regarding the lateral in Word 3, I suppose I was assuming that its environment was enough to condition the shift to [w].
The incorrect vowels should all be the same (and the first of word 1 should be long as well). Hopefully my comments above on the lateral's secondary articulation are enough to get it right. It's pretty darn simple.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm definitely not sure about the labialized consonant in Word 2. I assume it's voiced and retroflex, so perhaps just [ɖʷ]?
Good choice!
Ah, you know, if [lʷ] ends up being correct for Word 3, it's going to feel like a super-obvious solution in hindsight, particularly in light of [ɖʷ], but I guess I'm just so used to [ɫ] > [w]. 

As for the vowels, hopefully [ɐ] is at least closer, if not the actual solution! 


AB [xae̯ˈlæɟi] - [ˈuɸɟe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ɟe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [xaːˈɺæɟi] - [ˈpɸurɟe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːɟe]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: not sure why you changed the initial. Also, the other two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: Correct! (once again, not being too picky with diphthongs: [æy̯] is correct)
Word 4: the final vowel is correct
Not too far off anywhere
Ah, well, I had [k-] in Word 1 as part of my first attempt at reconstructing ABCD, so I must have neglected to change that when I submitted my second guess, even though my reconstructions of AB and CD both had [x-]. 

So the initial consonant of Word 2 is neither [p] nor [ɸ], the second consonant of Word 1 is neither [l] nor [r], and the nucleus of the stressed syllable of Word 4 is neither [ei̯] nor [eː]. Hmm…

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈr̥i] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈr̥əi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjyːm] - [jiˈke]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: missing a segment
Word 3: the first consonant and the diphthong are incorrect
Word 4: missing a segment
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure what to do about "lots of problems", so I'm not sure if I'm any closer this time around.
You are much closer this time, just a couple tweaks needed.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I definitely don't think that the [r] in Word 2 and the initial vowel in Word 3 are correct, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment.
You're in luck, because both of those are correct!
Wow, that definitely was lucky!

I'm really not sure what's going on with the first consonant or the nucleus of the stressed syllable in Word 3. Regardless of whether or not [r̥] is correct in Word 1 in GH, I definitely don't think it's correct in Word 3. I'm not even sure whether EF [j] and [u] correspond to GH [C] and [əi̯], respectively, or if it's more like EF [Ø] : GH [C] and EF [ju] : GH [əi̯]. 

IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈɫɑtˤ] - [ˈɫɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the vowels are off in quality, the first and last consonants are missing something, and the other consonant is incorrect
Word 2: two incorrect segments, one extra segment, and one segment is missing something
Word 3: the initial consonant is off
Word 4: the vowel is off in quality and the consonants are incorrect
I think I'm least certain about Word 2, but I'll try this for now.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 The apparent correspondences between laterals and coronal stops are confusing me the most, I think.
Those IJK coronal stops that match the LM laterals in words 1 and 2 shouldn't be there. See above for my comments on the unusual sound change that gave rise to them.
Ah, got it! Well, hopefully, at least. 

NO [iqˈqodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɬˈɬeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkodðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

NOPQ [tsæːˈqχotə] - [ˈqæːdlə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: one extra segment, the final vowel and the consonants are incorrect, one too many syllables
Word 2: the initial consonant is off (very close though)
Word 3: I don't want to cause confusion with my comments, so I'll be clear. It should be two syllables and start with an affricate. The stressed vowel and everything after it is correct
Word 4: the initial consonant is incorrect. If you don't get it next time, I'll give it away
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 Judging by your comments on Word 3, I get the feeling I have no idea what's going on with these final vowels. I also have no idea which segment in Word 3 could be the extra one.
Well you got most of them right (hint: they're all the same). And I've made it pretty this time here what's extra.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 There's a lot that I'm not happy with here, but I'm just going to leave it for now. I know you brought up several inaccuracies which I haven't addressed, but in those cases, I'm currently out of ideas for what else I could try.

I tried looking through the Index Diachronica, but I suppose I'm not close enough yet to even know where the right place to look would be.
You were pretty close with all your guesses (word 1 is still kinda far off, but you got most of the vowels), so whatever you did try was smart. It might be tough to find that change without knowing the proto-form or being all that certain of some of the lower-level groupings' proto-forms.
Thank you for all of your feedback! I definitely feel like I'm getting closer for Words 2-4, although Word 1 is still giving me quite a bit of trouble, which, again, is likely thanks to lower-level reconstructions being off. Regarding the final syllable of Word 1, I think the final vowel was just something I overlooked and neglected to change last time, and I'm tentatively reconstructing the consonant as [t] based on the fact that [k] > [g] seems to have taken place intervocalically in Word 4 in NO.

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]

RSTUV [ʔɑɣzzài̯tsi] - [póːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [rrìːtse]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: one extra segment, one missing segment, and the final consonant is incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant is off, and the nucleus should be a long vowel
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of length, the final consonant is incorrect, and the initial is incorrect (hint: it should be a geminate)
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure what's going on with the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2. I'll try [oy̯] for now, but I'm not sure if I believe it myself.
It's not too far off.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm also not sure about Word 4 in general. It seems like there should be a diphthong, but if two of the three monophthongs from my last reconstruction were correct, I suppose that can't be the case. I don't think I've addressed everything you mentioned, but this may be the best I can do at the moment.
I hope my comments above will clear your uncertainties.
So, the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2 should be a long vowel, but is it [oː] or [øː] or even something else? I'll try [oː] this round.

As for the initial geminate of Word 4, I'm admittedly having a hard time imagining either [qq] > [zz] or [zz] > [q], so I figure there's some kind of sound change I'm unfamiliar with that's taking place here. I'll try [qq] for now. Well, actually, given what you've said below about [z], I might just try [rr] instead, assuming something like [r(r)] > [ʀ~ʁ] > [q] in RST.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'll readily admit that tone is a weak point for me when it comes to this sort of thing - there are a few basic changes I'm comfortable and familiar with, but beyond those… 

I've based the tones here off of those in my current reconstructions of RST and UV. I can't be sure if any of what I have is correct, but hopefully I've gotten at least somewhat closer.
I'm totally in the same boat as you. Your tonal guesses here were all correct. I pretty much only worried myself with tonogenesis and some very macro changes, such as shifts in the entire paradigm. Like you, I'm not very adept at these types of changes, so you were right to think simple.

Something I feel is worth saying: I ended up with a lot of [z]s in the daughter languages of this family. A major proportion of those are due to the reverse of a common process in Indo-European languages, one that I found was equally common the other way crosslinguistically.
Ah, glad to know I'm not alone!

Oh, hmm… What comes to mind immediately for me is [z] > [r], with [r] > [z] being the reverse, so to speak. Whether or not that's exactly correct here, I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. To clarify, though, are you referring to the daughter languages of RSTUV specifically, or the entirely family as a whole?

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]

WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the first two vowels are off (should be the same as YZ when you get them correct)
Word 2: the second consonant is incorrect
Word 3: the first vowel is off (once again, same as the correct YZ vowel)
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I'm not sure how I feel about the vowels in Words 1 and 3, or the consonants in Word 2.
Those incorrect vowels are the same as each other, the same as YZ, and the same as a daughter lang of YZ.

In word two, you're right about the medial consonant being retroflex and a stop, but the other two features of it are incorrect (voicing and secondary articulation).
Ah, thanks for your feedback!

Actually, what you've said about the incorrect vowels being the same as in one of the daughter languages of YZ is throwing me off. Y has [aː], [à], and [a], while Z has [aɐ̯], [ə̀], and [ə]. In my original reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Y, but that was incorrect. Similarly, in my second reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Z, but that was incorrect as well. Am I missing or overlooking something? I'm going to leave them as they are for now.



ABCD [xaːˈɺæɟi] - [ˈpɸurɟe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːɟe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjyːm] - [jiˈke]

A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈtwurxe] - [ˈjælym] - [ˈjiːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the first syllable is correct, the final vowel is correct, and another consonant is partially correct
Word 2: the final vowel is correct (there should be a vowel in here, lean more towards ABCD for your reconstruction of the word)
Word 3: only m is correct. When ABCD became monosyllabic in this word, it wasn't the initial syllable that fell off, but the initial consonant of the final syllable that elided away and left a diphthong in its place
Word 4: there should be an initial consonant
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 OK, something has definitely gone wrong here. I don't really expect much, if any, of this to be right.
Don't beat yourself up. You did very well on words 1 and 4.
Yeah, I think Words 2 and 3 are definitely going to be giving me the most trouble. 

Ah, in Word 3, I'd been thinking that A-H had a long vowel which diphthongized in ABCD, but that doesn't sound like it's the case. 

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈɫɑtˤ] - [ˈɫɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [tsæːˈqχotə] - [ˈqæːdlə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

I-Q [sˤæːˈlɑtˤə] - [ˈlæu̯dˤe] - [ˈdɮeɬi] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: one extra syllable (including two extra segments), two incorrect consonants and one in the wrong place, all the vowels are incorrect
Word 2: one correct segment, but it's in the wrong place
Word 3: the final vowel is correct, hopefully cleaning up NOPQ will aid with the rest of this word
Word 4: the initial is incorrect, and the other consonant is missing something
I'm not sure about a whole lot of things here, but the non-final vowels in Words 1 and 2 are tripping me up in particular, I feel, along with the consonants I've reconstructed as laterals in those same words. 
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 My thoughts on A-H apply here as well. I never expected [Cˠ] or [Cˤ] to be the correct explanation for these apparent coronal-dorsal correspondences (I'm sure the actual explanation is that I've screwed up my lower-level reconstructions), but now that I've noticed that IJKLM has a coronal where NOPQ has a uvular in Words 1 and 2, but IJKLM has a uvular where NOPQ has a coronal in Word 4, I'm more certain than ever that I've completely gone off the rails. I don't have a very good reason for the initial consonant of Word 4.
The actual explanation is that you've screwed up your lower-level reconstructions. Hopefully I can provide some insight. I don't want to give too much away, but [Cˤ] is a fantastic idea. It doesn't apply to the correspondences you placed it in here, but it appears four times in I-Q. The [Cˤ] idea is something you should always have in the back of your mind in this language family, as it's somewhat of a theme, the idea I had that birthed this challenge. Hopefully I haven't said too much or too little.

As for the coronal-uvular correspondences, I can tell you that word 1 has a coronal in IJKLM and a uvular in NOPQ, but not the ones you reconstructed. Word 2 is the same. Word 4 has no such correspondence. As a matter of fact, both reflexes of the word 4 initial have the same POA, and it is not uvular or coronal.
That's what I figured, but it's always nice to have confirmation. Oh, I actually already had pharyngealized consonants for IJKLM before reading this! Hopefully I'm on the right track here, but I'm not entirely sure that the four pharyngealized consonants I've reconstructed are all correct. I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. 

So there is a uvular in Word 1 in NOPQ, but not [q]? Hm… I guess I'll have to go back and change that, but to what I'm not sure.

Hopefully I've guessed the MOA of Word 4's initial consonant correctly, but if not, I can always try the other option next time.

RSTUV [ʔɑɣzzài̯tsi] - [póːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [rrìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [póʈɤ] - [ɟalý] - [rrìːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the first two vowels are off in terms of quality
Word 2: only the final vowel is correct
Word 3: the second consonant is correct (lean more on RSTUV here)
Word 4: the vowels are correct (lean more on WXYZ here)
So, you've said that WXYZ should be more helpful for reconstructing the consonants in Word 4, but I feel better about [rr] > [ʀ] than [ʀ] > [rr]. Maybe I'll have to change it next time, but that's what I'm going with now.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I suppose I'm falling back on [tˠ] here as well. Again, I'm sure these kinds of correspondences are because I've messed up at a number of points leading up to this. Hopefully things will become a bit more clear in the next round.
Your analysis here is correct, that your reconstructions of lower forms are once again creating much more difficulty than there should be. Something that may help the whole affair is to think about Spanish. Latin 'multus' > 'muito' > 'mucho'. Those latter two forms, and the sound change associated with them, may help.
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I don't know how confident I feel about assuming [æ] > [ai̯] : [ə] either.
Be more confident! The ash here is only very slightly off from the real form.
Oh, I think I see what you mean about "mucho". Hopefully I'm on the right track. As for the vowel, perhaps just [a]? Hmm…




A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈtwurxe] - [ˈjælym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤæːˈlɑtˤə] - [ˈlæu̯dˤe] - [ˈdɮeɬi] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [póʈɤ] - [ɟalý] - [rrìːke]

A-Z [ʃaːrˈrɑti] - [ˈtworte] - [ˈɟalym] - [ˈhriːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37 Word 1: the first and last vowels are correct, as is the last consonant. A segment is missing
Word 2: the diphthong should be a short monophthong and the final vowel is correct
Word 3: two correct segments, but only one is in the right place. The stress is also supposed to be on the first syllable, and there are one too many segments
Word 4: the vowels are correct, and the last consonant is correct as well. One extra segment and one missing segment
Based on what you said above about some change involving [z], I might try [rr] for Word 1.

The consonants in Word 2 are giving me the most trouble out of everything here, probably. 

I don't know if I've correctly understood your comments about Word 4.
Ratsawn wrote: 13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: 11 Jan 2021 03:00 I originally wasn't even planning to attempt to reconstruct the original forms this round, but I figured that I might as well.

I'd been neglecting to really compare different branches before now, so I was surprised to see some apparent similarities between my reconstructions of A-H, I-Q, and R-Z, although whether or not those similarities are meaningful or correct remains to be seen. 

I seem to have done the worst with Words 2 and 3. My guesses for the original forms here make no sense in the context of the forms I've reconstructed for A-H, I-Q, and R-Z. Words 1 and 4 aren't that much better off, probably.
I'm glad you reconstructed this. You're surprisingly close! You're right that words 2 and 3 are the furthest off, but that is mostly because your reconstructions of them in lower levels were also not that great. If I can direct you, the bad reconstructions that are throwing you the furthest off are A-H words 2 and 3. For word three's structure (I'll comment on 2's structure another time), look at R-Z. Every segment in R-Z has an exact correspondence in A-Z, but it lost one (which one is not that difficult to figure out).

Hopefully all this will inform your next guess, and hopefully it won't take me so long to respond next time.
I'm glad I did as well, actually. It certainly didn't hurt.

I may have relied too heavily on R-Z for Word 3.

No worries about taking your time to respond, of course!
ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Third attempt:

A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]
New AB: [xaə̯ˈðætʃi] - [ˈuhtʃe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃe]


C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

New CD: [xɑ:ˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈjæ:m] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD: [xa:ˈdatʃi] – [ˈpurtʃe] – [ˈjaum] – [ˈai̯tʃe].

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

New EF: [arˈtsi] – [ˈtsʁa] – [iˈjumi] – [iˈkxa]

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

New GH: [ka:ˈθi] – [twe] – [eˈʂojm] – [jiˈxe]


EFGH: [xarˈtsi] – [tswaj] – [eˈʂumi] – [jiˈkʰaj]


A-H: [xa:ˈdati] – [ˈtwerʃe] – [eˈʃu:mi] – [ˈi:kʰaj]


I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK: [ʃwˀɑ:wˀɑt] - [jwˀɒu̯d] - [dzeʎi] - [ˀə:q]


L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

New LM: [ħoˈla] – [ˈløwi] – [ˈdæli] – [hɯ:]

IJKLM: [swˀa:lˀat] - [jlˀawd] - [dæli] - [hɯ:q]

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

New NO: [eɴˈχɔdə] – [ˈqædɮə] – [inˈɮeɮ] – [ˈʔigə]

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

New PQ [θəʃæi̯ˈçoθə] – [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] – [dəˈʒehə] - [ˈθɨ:çə]

NOPQ: [ʃæ:ŋˈkotə] – [ˈkæ:dɮə] – [ˈdɮeɬə] – [ˈti:kə]

I-Q: [swa:ŋˈlatə] – [ˈkla:dlə] – [ˈdɮɛɬi] – [ˈtə:kə]

RST [ʔæ:zzèjdzí] - [pojlɤ̀] - [ʒèjlý] - [qèjdzé]

UV [àɣə̀zzâʃtsì] - [wówlè] - [dʒàʒlý] - [ə̀zzîʃtsè]

RSTUV: [há:zzâʒtsí] – [bó:lè] – [ʒàjlú] – [hzêjtsè]

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæ:ˈzɑθə] – [ˈhoʂə] – [ˈjeɫu] – [ˈhiːxə]


Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐ:rɐtə] – [ʙóɖʷə] – [jɐlʷú] – [ʀì:kʲə]:

WXYZ: [ʂɐːˈzɐtə] – [ˈʙoʈwə] – [ˈjɐlu] – [ˈʀiːkə]

Weird, I’ve never seen ʙ > h. ʀ > h happened in several Portuguese dialects though.

R-Z: [ʂa:zzati] – [bo:ʈe] – [ʒalu] – [gzi:ke]
I-Q: [swa:ŋˈlatə] – [ˈkla:dlə] – [ˈdɮɛɬi] – [ˈtə:kə]
A-H: [xa:ˈdati] – [ˈtwerʃe] – [eˈʃu:mi] – [ˈi:kʰaj]

All: [swa:nˈla:ti] – [ˈtwe:rte] – [ˈdɮeɬmi] – [ˈke:ske:]
Ratsawn
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Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's third attempt:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæɟi] - [ˈuɸɟe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ɟe]
The [ɟ]s are incorrect. Your first guess was the closest by far, because it caught that the consonant is voiceless, somewhere in the palatal region, and it contains some stop component (also there's another reason it was so much closer, but that would give it away even more than I already have).
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈr̥i] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈr̥əi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
The [r̥]s are incorrect. In word one, the original consonant went through a different type of lenition in G and H, whereas the word 3 consonant went through yet third and fourth types of lenition (sorta confusing answer, basically just each one is a different sound change).
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Oh, I must have misread or misinterpreted some of your comments last time, then! I think I'll just leave them as they are for now, but I may revisit them later on if doing so seems like it might be beneficial.
This might've been due to some alternative reconstructions I added while responding to ɶʙ ɞʛ. I added a disclaimer after one of my responses to him/her. You might've missed it.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
Word 1: one extra consonant (I think I screwed up my last comment, because you took out one that was extra (correct) and you need to take out one more)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 For Word 3, I feel like I should get rid of either [-i] or [-i̯-]. I'll try [-i̯-] this round.
Good choice!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 For Word 4, I don't know how I feel about what I've done, but hopefully I've interpreted your comments correctly.
Perfect!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I'm now getting the feeling that the [t] and [d] in Words 1 and 2 in J may be innovations. Actually, looking at your comments on IJKLM below, that seems to be the case. 

Based on what you've said about two other consonants being off in Word 1 and one other consonant being off in Word 2, I'm thinking that [w] may not be exactly what I'm looking for. But is what I'm actually looking for a single consonant that appears three times, or are there 2-3 different consonants that I've failed to differentiate and incorrectly lumped together as [w]? Hmm… Based on I, I might just try [ʋ] for now.
Again, great choices! The t and d in 1 and 2 (as well as the q in 4) were a result of long distance metathesis in J, where word final consonants were disallowed and became moved to the onset of those syllables.

As for the [ʋ], great choice.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [iqˈqodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɬˈɬeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
Word 1: the first consonant is incorrect, the other is partially correct
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the first two consonants are incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 You mentioned below that the final vowel in Word 3 was lost in N because the preceding consonant was voiceless, and although you didn't necessarily mean that the consonant in question was voiceless in NO, I'm going to try [ɬ], since [l] and [ɮ] were incorrect. 

You also mentioned below that, for Word 1, the voiceless uvular affricate was closer to the original form than the fricative, so I might just try [q] for now, although I don't currently have an explanation in mind for why it developed differently in Words 1 and 2 if it's actually correct. 

I'm feeling a bit stumped by N [NC] : O [CC] in Words 1 and 3. The nasals being present in NO and then fully assimilating to following consonants in O felt like it made the most sense to me, but after my last two attempts, I'm no longer so sure about that. [CC] > [NC] doesn't quite feel right, especially if C is voiceless, but that's what I'll go with for now.
The problems you still have are due to the N [NC] : O [CC] correspondences. If it helps, it may be more beneficial to analyze them as N [C1C2] : O [C1C1]. In word 3, this came from two of the same consonant because of its fricative nature, as the initial fricative developed into the [n] through debuccalization and rhinoglottophilia. An analogous change occurred in word 1, but it is hard to see because the original fricative has been assimilated in O. Sorry if this was too much information and I spoiled the fun.

As for the second consonant in word 1, I now realize that the uvular affricate should've been essentially correct. It's just an aspirated uvular stop. Again, sorry if I ruined the thrill of the chase. You still have the first two fricatives in word three and the fricative in word 1 to figure out.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkodðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I think I'm just going to try [ʔ] because of NO.
Good choice. In hindsight, I should've not done such a bizarre change as [ʔ] > [t] > [θ].
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 For the third consonant in Word 1, I guess I'll try [k] because of Word 4. 

As for the fourth consonant behind P [θ] : Q [j], though, it's been confirmed that it's neither [θ] nor [ð], but I'm kind of at a loss for what it could actually be. Other instances of [j] in Q correspond to either [j] or [ʒ] in P, and there are no other instances of [θ] in P. Voiceless consonants like s, [ç], and [k] seem to be lost between vowels in P, so I'm going to assume that this one was originally voiced. If that's correct, though, I'm not sure why it ended up being devoiced. Whatever this consonant is, it seems to correspond to [d] in NO, but [d] is preserved in Word 2 in P. I don't think it's correct, but I'm going to put [dð] for this round because I can't think of anything else.
There was metathesis (I'll explain why later) between that pair of consonants in one of the daughters, so the correspondences in word one are mismatched.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
All correct! Great job! (p.s. must not have noticed when I commented about the l in word three, the l in word 2 also shouldn't be dark)
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Ah, you know, if [lʷ] ends up being correct for Word 3, it's going to feel like a super-obvious solution in hindsight, particularly in light of [ɖʷ], but I guess I'm just so used to [ɫ] > [w].
Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to find. Glad you got it.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 AB [xae̯ˈlæɟi] - [ˈuɸɟe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ɟe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [xaːˈɺæɟi] - [ˈpɸurɟe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːɟe]
Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: the initial and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the consonant is incorrect

The [ɟ]s are incorrect. They are the same as the true values of AB
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 So the initial consonant of Word 2 is neither [p] nor [ɸ], the second consonant of Word 1 is neither [l] nor [r], and the nucleus of the stressed syllable of Word 4 is neither [ei̯] nor [eː]. Hmm…
The consonant in word two went through opposite developments in AB and CD, the vowel of 4 is correct, and nowhere did I say that both [l] and [r] were incorrect. One is right.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈr̥i] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈr̥əi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjyːm] - [jiˈke]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the nucleus of the stressed syllable is incorrect, and should be a diphthong
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I'm really not sure what's going on with the first consonant or the nucleus of the stressed syllable in Word 3. Regardless of whether or not [r̥] is correct in Word 1 in GH, I definitely don't think it's correct in Word 3. I'm not even sure whether EF [j] and u correspond to GH [C] and [əi̯], respectively, or if it's more like EF [Ø] : GH [C] and EF [ju] : GH [əi̯].
There was metathesis in EF. That should clear your confusion. Neither of your correspondence ideas are quite it, because of the metathesis.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈɫɑtˤ] - [ˈɫɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
Word 1: the nonpharyngealized consonant ɫ is incorrect
Word 2: the ɫ is incorrect here as well, but you're right that it should be the same as in word 1
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 NO [iqˈqodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɬˈɬeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkodðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

NOPQ [tsæːˈqχotə] - [ˈqæːdlə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Word 1: the vowels and t are correct
Word 2: the initial is off and the cluster should be an affricate
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Thank you for all of your feedback! I definitely feel like I'm getting closer for Words 2-4, although Word 1 is still giving me quite a bit of trouble, which, again, is likely thanks to lower-level reconstructions being off. Regarding the final syllable of Word 1, I think the final vowel was just something I overlooked and neglected to change last time, and I'm tentatively reconstructing the consonant as [t] based on the fact that [k] > [g] seems to have taken place intervocalically in Word 4 in NO.
Yes, that's exactly right! A hint: word 1 began with more than one consonant in a row, and NO and PQ inserted epenthesis in different places to resolve it.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]

RSTUV [ʔɑɣzzài̯tsi] - [póːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [rrìːtse]
Word 1: one extra segment
Word 2: the initial is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial is the wrong rhotic
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Oh, hmm… What comes to mind immediately for me is [z] > [r], with [r] > [z] being the reverse, so to speak. Whether or not that's exactly correct here, I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. To clarify, though, are you referring to the daughter languages of RSTUV specifically, or the entirely family as a whole?
After reviewing my notes, I guess I just did that in the one place (RSTUV > UV) and one other, where it was part of a larger sound change that changed all trills into geminate fricatives.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]

WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
All correct! Great job!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Actually, what you've said about the incorrect vowels being the same as in one of the daughter languages of YZ is throwing me off. Y has [aː], [à], and [a], while Z has [aɐ̯], [ə̀], and [ə]. In my original reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Y, but that was incorrect. Similarly, in my second reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Z, but that was incorrect as well. Am I missing or overlooking something? I'm going to leave them as they are for now.
Oh my goodness I can't believe I said that. I must've been looking at YZ. So sorry, glad you were still able to get them all right.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 ABCD [xaːˈɺæɟi] - [ˈpɸurɟe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːɟe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjyːm] - [jiˈke]

A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈtwurxe] - [ˈjælym] - [ˈjiːke]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: take off the initial t, and then only the stressed vowel and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: the medial consonant is off
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Yeah, I think Words 2 and 3 are definitely going to be giving me the most trouble. 

Ah, in Word 3, I'd been thinking that A-H had a long vowel which diphthongized in ABCD, but that doesn't sound like it's the case.
Word two had vowel loss followed by metathesis to repair problems caused by the vowel loss in a daughter.

A-H had two vowels separated by an intervening consonant in word 3, just as you reconstructed. Just gotta get the intervening consonant correct.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈɫɑtˤ] - [ˈɫɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [tsæːˈqχotə] - [ˈqæːdlə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

I-Q [sˤæːˈlɑtˤə] - [ˈlæu̯dˤe] - [ˈdɮeɬi] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
Word 1: the long vowel and the following consonant are off
Word 2: the initial and the syllabic portion of the diphthong are off
Word 3: only the final vowel is correct, but you're right about the other segments being: a coronal affricate, a front unrounded vowel, and a lateral
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 That's what I figured, but it's always nice to have confirmation. Oh, I actually already had pharyngealized consonants for IJKLM before reading this! Hopefully I'm on the right track here, but I'm not entirely sure that the four pharyngealized consonants I've reconstructed are all correct. I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. 

So there is a uvular in Word 1 in NOPQ, but not [q]? Hm… I guess I'll have to go back and change that, but to what I'm not sure.

Hopefully I've guessed the MOA of Word 4's initial consonant correctly, but if not, I can always try the other option next time.
You got the pharyngealized consonants and the initial of 4 correct! Try a different uvular in NOPQ1 next time, if you get it, it'll make reconstructing that consonant in I-Q much easier.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 RSTUV [ʔɑɣzzài̯tsi] - [póːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [rrìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [póʈɤ] - [ɟalý] - [rrìːke]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the initial is off, should be the same as RSTUV when you get it right
Word 3: the initial is off, is the same as a daughter (based on my other comments, shouldn't be too hard to figure out which one)
Word 4: the initial is off, should be the same as RSTUV when you get it right
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 So, you've said that WXYZ should be more helpful for reconstructing the consonants in Word 4, but I feel better about [rr] > [ʀ] than [ʀ] > [rr]. Maybe I'll have to change it next time, but that's what I'm going with now.
Technically the [rr] is incorrect, but you are right otherwise, that the RSTUV initial is the R-Z initial.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Oh, I think I see what you mean about "mucho". Hopefully I'm on the right track. As for the vowel, perhaps just [a]? Hmm…
Good job!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈtwurxe] - [ˈjælym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤæːˈlɑtˤə] - [ˈlæu̯dˤe] - [ˈdɮeɬi] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [póʈɤ] - [ɟalý] - [rrìːke]

A-Z [ʃaːrˈrɑti] - [ˈtworte] - [ˈɟalym] - [ˈhriːke]
Word 1: the initial is off, as is the stressed vowel. The [rr] is not a geminate, but there is a geminate in this word
Word 2: the initial is incorrect and should only be one consonant. Additionally, one other consonant is partially incorrect
Word 3: the initial is off
Word 4: missing a consonant, and the initial is off (should be a single consonant). The initial looks like it dissolved too much in the daughters, so there's a few consonants I'll mark correct for this one.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 I don't know if I've correctly understood your comments about Word 4.
Hopefully it's clearer here. The initial should be one consonant, but there needs to be another consonant somewhere in the word.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 I may have relied too heavily on R-Z for Word 3.
I'm glad you did! Only one consonant off.

You came really close on all the proto-forms this round. I wouldn't be surprised if you get most or all of them next round, and I'm sure you'll definitely get it the following if not next round.
That took me way too long. I'll get my response to ɶʙ ɞʛ as soon as I can.
Ratsawn
hieroglyphic
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Posts: 47
Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to ɶʙ ɞʛ's third attempt:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]
New AB: [xaə̯ˈðætʃi] - [ˈuhtʃe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃe]
Word 1: the nonsyllabic part of the diphthong is off, as is the following consonant
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the syllabic portion of the diphthong is off
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

New CD: [xɑ:ˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈjæ:m] - [ˈeːdze]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the initial is off, you're right that it's palatal and voiced
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 ABCD: [xa:ˈdatʃi] – [ˈpurtʃe] – [ˈjaum] – [ˈai̯tʃe].
Word 1: the stressed vowel and the preceding consonant are incorrect
Word 2: the initial is off
Word 3: the diphthong is off
Word 4: the stressed vowel should be a long vowel
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

New EF: [arˈtsi] – [ˈtsʁa] – [iˈjumi] – [iˈkxa]
Word 1: the affricate should not be an affricate
Word 2: same as word 1
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: same as words 1 and 2
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

New GH: [ka:ˈθi] – [twe] – [eˈʂojm] – [jiˈxe]
Word 1: the medial consonant is off
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the medial consonant and diphthong are off
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 EFGH: [xarˈtsi] – [tswaj] – [eˈʂumi] – [jiˈkʰaj]
Word 1: the affricate should not be an affricate
Word 2: same as word 1, plus there needs to be another consonant and a monophthong instead of a diphthong
Word 3: the stressed vowel should be a diphthong, only m is correct, one extra segment
Word 4: k is partially incorrect, and the stressed vowel is all wrong, shouldn't be a diphthong
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 A-H: [xa:ˈdati] – [ˈtwerʃe] – [eˈʃu:mi] – [ˈi:kʰaj]
Word 1: [d] is incorrect
Word 2: [r] and [e] are correct, one extra consonant
Word 3: one too many syllables, only [m] is correct
Word 4: the stressed vowel is correct, the final vowel should not be a diphthong, and [kʰ] is partially correct
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK: [ʃwˀɑ:wˀɑt] - [jwˀɒu̯d] - [dzeʎi] - [ˀə:q]
Word 1: the first [w] doesn't need to be there, and instead of the glottalization, try adding phonation to the vowels
Word 2: [j] is extra, same vowel comment as word 1
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: same vowel comment as words 1 and 2
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

New LM: [ħoˈla] – [ˈløwi] – [ˈdæli] – [hɯ:]
Word 1: one vowels is off in terms of length
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 IJKLM: [swˀa:lˀat] - [jlˀawd] - [dæli] - [hɯ:q]
Word 1: only [t] is partially correct, the initial only has one consonant
Word 2: the initial and the stressed vowel are incorrect, [d] is partially incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

New NO: [eɴˈχɔdə] – [ˈqædɮə] – [inˈɮeɮ] – [ˈʔigə]
Word 1: the stressed vowel and everything before it are off
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: should be three syllables, only the first fricative and the vowels are correct
Word 4: the stressed vowel is off in terms of frontness
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

New PQ [θəʃæi̯ˈçoθə] – [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] – [dəˈʒehə] - [ˈθɨ:çə]
Word 1: the vowels and [ʃ] are correct
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the vowels are correct, the initial is incredibly difficult so I'm just gonna tell you: [ʔ]
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 NOPQ: [ʃæ:ŋˈkotə] – [ˈkæ:dɮə] – [ˈdɮeɬə] – [ˈti:kə]
Word 1: the initial should be a geminate, [ŋ] is unnecessary, and [k] is incorrect
Word 2: the initial is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the first syllable is incorrect
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 I-Q: [swa:ŋˈlatə] – [ˈkla:dlə] – [ˈdɮɛɬi] – [ˈtə:kə]
Word 1: two extra segments, the final vowel is correct
Word 2: [d] is partially correct, the structure is not even close
Word 3: the final vowel is correct
Word 4: the initial is incorrect and [k] is partially incorrect
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 RST [ʔæ:zzèjdzí] - [pojlɤ̀] - [ʒèjlý] - [qèjdzé]
Word 1: the long vowel is incorrect and it needs a tone
Word 2: the diphthong is off and needs a tone
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 UV [àɣə̀zzâʃtsì] - [wówlè] - [dʒàʒlý] - [ə̀zzîʃtsè]
Word 1: only the penultimate vowel has tone, the one you reconstructed is incorrect
Word 2: only the first vowel has tone
Word 3: only the last vowel has tone
Word 4: same comment as word 1
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 RSTUV: [há:zzâʒtsí] – [bó:lè] – [ʒàjlú] – [hzêjtsè]
Word 1: the vowels, tones, and one consonant are incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant and final vowel are incorrect (the final vowel needs no tone)
Word 3: the initial consonant and the final vowel are incorrect. The first vowel should be toneless
Word 4: only the final syllable is correct (and the final vowel needs no tone)
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæ:ˈzɑθə] – [ˈhoʂə] – [ˈjeɫu] – [ˈhiːxə]
All correct! Great job!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐ:rɐtə] – [ʙóɖʷə] – [jɐlʷú] – [ʀì:kʲə]:
Word 1: all correct, but one vowel needs a tone
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 WXYZ: [ʂɐːˈzɐtə] – [ˈʙoʈwə] – [ˈjɐlu] – [ˈʀiːkə]
Word 1: Correct!*
Word 2: the [w] is unnecessary
Word 3: Correct!*
Word 4: Correct!*
*WXYZ is a tonal language
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 Weird, I’ve never seen ʙ > h. ʀ > h happened in several Portuguese dialects though.
With the amount of air support it takes to produce a trill, I wouldn't be surprised if, given a larger sample size, we found that debuccalization was very common in all trills, especially the bilabial, uvular, and pharyngeal trills.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 20 Jan 2021 19:51 R-Z: [ʂa:zzati] – [bo:ʈe] – [ʒalu] – [gzi:ke]
I-Q: [swa:ŋˈlatə] – [ˈkla:dlə] – [ˈdɮɛɬi] – [ˈtə:kə]
A-H: [xa:ˈdati] – [ˈtwerʃe] – [eˈʃu:mi] – [ˈi:kʰaj]

All: [swa:nˈla:ti] – [ˈtwe:rte] – [ˈdɮeɬmi] – [ˈke:ske:]
Word 1: the vowels are correct (one is off in terms of length) and [t] is correct, but should be geminated
Word 2: [r] and [e] are correct, and [t] is partially correct
Word 3: [m] is correct
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of quality, the other in length. Of the consonants, only [k] is correct, but should be geminated
I anticipate we'll do one to two more rounds (I wonder if anyone else will ever join the three of us in this game), depending on the responses in the next round.
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Fourth attempt:
Spoiler:
A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæcçi] - [ˈuɸcçe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯cçe]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 The [ɟ]s are incorrect. Your first guess was the closest by far, because it caught that the consonant is voiceless, somewhere in the palatal region, and it contains some stop component (also there's another reason it was so much closer, but that would give it away even more than I already have).
Perhaps an affricate, then?

C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈjəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 The [r̥]s are incorrect. In word one, the original consonant went through a different type of lenition in G and H, whereas the word 3 consonant went through yet third and fourth types of lenition (sorta confusing answer, basically just each one is a different sound change).
I feel like [t] is a reasonable guess for the consonant in Word 1, but I'm really not sure what the consonant in Word 3 could be. I know it isn't [r], [s], or [r̥]. I may just put [j] for now because of EFGH. 
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 This might've been due to some alternative reconstructions I added while responding to ɶʙ ɞʛ. I added a disclaimer after one of my responses to him/her. You might've missed it.
I saw that, but I suppose I still don't really understand what it means for me in this context. 

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: one extra consonant (I think I screwed up my last comment, because you took out one that was extra (correct) and you need to take out one more)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 For Word 3, I feel like I should get rid of either [-i] or [-i̯-]. I'll try [-i̯-] this round.
Good choice!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 For Word 4, I don't know how I feel about what I've done, but hopefully I've interpreted your comments correctly.
Perfect!
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Again, great choices! The t and d in 1 and 2 (as well as the q in 4) were a result of long distance metathesis in J, where word final consonants were disallowed and became moved to the onset of those syllables.

As for the [ʋ], great choice.
Thanks for your feedback! Oh, wow, the possibility of metathesis here somehow never occurred to me, but I love it! Hopefully I've made the right choice with Word 1.

L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the first consonant is incorrect, the other is partially correct
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the first two consonants are incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 You mentioned below that the final vowel in Word 3 was lost in N because the preceding consonant was voiceless, and although you didn't necessarily mean that the consonant in question was voiceless in NO, I'm going to try [ɬ], since [l] and [ɮ] were incorrect. 

You also mentioned below that, for Word 1, the voiceless uvular affricate was closer to the original form than the fricative, so I might just try [q] for now, although I don't currently have an explanation in mind for why it developed differently in Words 1 and 2 if it's actually correct. 

I'm feeling a bit stumped by N [NC] : O [CC] in Words 1 and 3. The nasals being present in NO and then fully assimilating to following consonants in O felt like it made the most sense to me, but after my last two attempts, I'm no longer so sure about that. [CC] > [NC] doesn't quite feel right, especially if C is voiceless, but that's what I'll go with for now.
The problems you still have are due to the N [NC] : O [CC] correspondences. If it helps, it may be more beneficial to analyze them as N [C1C2] : O [C1C1]. In word 3, this came from two of the same consonant because of its fricative nature, as the initial fricative developed into the [n] through debuccalization and rhinoglottophilia. An analogous change occurred in word 1, but it is hard to see because the original fricative has been assimilated in O. Sorry if this was too much information and I spoiled the fun.

As for the second consonant in word 1, I now realize that the uvular affricate should've been essentially correct. It's just an aspirated uvular stop. Again, sorry if I ruined the thrill of the chase. You still have the first two fricatives in word three and the fricative in word 1 to figure out.
Ah, thank you! And don't worry, I'd say it's pretty unlikely that anything you share will "spoil the fun" or "ruin the thrill of the chase" for me personally.

So, for the first consonant in Word 1, my previous guesses were [ɴ] and [q], but I know now that I'm looking for a fricative. For the first two consonants in Word 3, my previous guesses were [nɮ], [nl], and [ɬɬ], but I know now that I'm looking for a geminate fricative. Looking back, I don't think you ever explicitly said [ɮ] was incorrect, so I'll go back to that. Just to clarify, is the fricative [C₁] in Word 1 the same as [C₁] in Word 3? I'm going to assume that's not the case, at least for now. I think I'll just tentatively put [s] in Word 1 this round, because of PQ.

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈqotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I think I'm just going to try [ʔ] because of NO.
Good choice. In hindsight, I should've not done such a bizarre change as [ʔ] > [t] > [θ].
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 For the third consonant in Word 1, I guess I'll try [k] because of Word 4. 

As for the fourth consonant behind P [θ] : Q [j], though, it's been confirmed that it's neither [θ] nor [ð], but I'm kind of at a loss for what it could actually be. Other instances of [j] in Q correspond to either [j] or [ʒ] in P, and there are no other instances of [θ] in P. Voiceless consonants like s, [ç], and [k] seem to be lost between vowels in P, so I'm going to assume that this one was originally voiced. If that's correct, though, I'm not sure why it ended up being devoiced. Whatever this consonant is, it seems to correspond to [d] in NO, but [d] is preserved in Word 2 in P. I don't think it's correct, but I'm going to put [dð] for this round because I can't think of anything else.
There was metathesis (I'll explain why later) between that pair of consonants in one of the daughters, so the correspondences in word one are mismatched.
Thank you! OK, so [c-θ], [k-ð], and [k-dð] have all been incorrect. I'm going to try [q-t] this time based partially on NO.

And wow, [ʔ] > [t]! What was the "inspiration", so to speak, for that? I quickly skimmed the Index Diachronica just now, but I must have missed it. 

R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job! (p.s. must not have noticed when I commented about the l in word three, the l in word 2 also shouldn't be dark)
Thank you! I'll fix the other [l] now.

U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Ah, you know, if [lʷ] ends up being correct for Word 3, it's going to feel like a super-obvious solution in hindsight, particularly in light of [ɖʷ], but I guess I'm just so used to [ɫ] > [w].
Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to find. Glad you got it.
Thank you!


AB [xae̯ˈlæcçi] - [ˈuɸcçe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯cçe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [xaːˈræcçi] - [ˈʍurcçe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːcçe]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: the initial and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the consonant is incorrect

The [ɟ]s are incorrect. They are the same as the true values of AB
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 So the initial consonant of Word 2 is neither [p] nor [ɸ], the second consonant of Word 1 is neither [l] nor [r], and the nucleus of the stressed syllable of Word 4 is neither [ei̯] nor [eː]. Hmm…
The consonant in word two went through opposite developments in AB and CD, the vowel of 4 is correct, and nowhere did I say that both [l] and [r] were incorrect. One is right.
Hmm, then I must have misinterpreted one of your previous comments about certain unspecified consonants being incorrect as referring in part to either [r] or [l]. 

I'm not sure what else to try for the initial consonant of Word 2, since [p], [ɸ], and [pɸ] haven't been correct. [ʍ] is honestly just a random guess. Can I ask if there even is an initial consonant? In other words, should it actually be something like [ˈuCrcçe] instead of [ˈCurcçe]?

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈjəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the nucleus of the stressed syllable is incorrect, and should be a diphthong
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I'm really not sure what's going on with the first consonant or the nucleus of the stressed syllable in Word 3. Regardless of whether or not [r̥] is correct in Word 1 in GH, I definitely don't think it's correct in Word 3. I'm not even sure whether EF [j] and u correspond to GH [C] and [əi̯], respectively, or if it's more like EF [Ø] : GH [C] and EF [ju] : GH [əi̯].
There was metathesis in EF. That should clear your confusion. Neither of your correspondence ideas are quite it, because of the metathesis.
Ah, so perhaps [ui̯], then? 

IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈlɑtˤ] - [ˈlɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the nonpharyngealized consonant ɫ is incorrect
Word 2: the ɫ is incorrect here as well, but you're right that it should be the same as in word 1
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
The phrasing of your comment on Word 1 makes me wonder if it should be a pharyngealized, rather than velarized, [l] in Words 1 and 2. However, I think there were only supposed to be 4 pharyngealized consonants in I-Q, if I remember correctly, and the laterals weren't among them. I may just try [l] this round because I can't think of anything else. 

NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈqotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

NOPQ [ʃsæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the vowels and t are correct
Word 2: the initial is off and the cluster should be an affricate
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Thank you for all of your feedback! I definitely feel like I'm getting closer for Words 2-4, although Word 1 is still giving me quite a bit of trouble, which, again, is likely thanks to lower-level reconstructions being off. Regarding the final syllable of Word 1, I think the final vowel was just something I overlooked and neglected to change last time, and I'm tentatively reconstructing the consonant as [t] based on the fact that [k] > [g] seems to have taken place intervocalically in Word 4 in NO.
Yes, that's exactly right! A hint: word 1 began with more than one consonant in a row, and NO and PQ inserted epenthesis in different places to resolve it.
Trying to wrap my head around the original structure of Word 1 here is probably the hardest part of all of this. 

For the initial consonant of Word 2, I think [ɢ] was incorrect but "very close", so I guess I'll try [ʁ] this time. 

(Also, all of the quotes from here on out in your most recent response post appear to be attributed to ɶʙ ɞʛ instead of me. I'm not sure how that happened, but I've tried to fix it here.)

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]

RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [wóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʀìːtse]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: one extra segment
Word 2: the initial is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial is the wrong rhotic
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Oh, hmm… What comes to mind immediately for me is [z] > [r], with [r] > [z] being the reverse, so to speak. Whether or not that's exactly correct here, I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. To clarify, though, are you referring to the daughter languages of RSTUV specifically, or the entirely family as a whole?
After reviewing my notes, I guess I just did that in the one place (RSTUV > UV) and one other, where it was part of a larger sound change that changed all trills into geminate fricatives.
Since it sounds like the initial consonant of Word 4 is a rhotic, but not [r], and since trills became geminate fricatives in UV (unless I'm reading that wrong), I'm going to try a non-geminate [ʀ] this round. 

As for the extra segment in Word 1, I tried removing the initial glottal stop before, but that didn't seem to be correct. [ɣ] seems like it might be my best bet, then, although I can't think of any examples of [ɣ]-insertion off the top of my head to explain UV. 

For the initial consonant of Word 2, I can't say I currently have any particularly strong feelings about what it might be, other than something at least partially labial. I may just put [w] for now, because of UV. 

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]

WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Actually, what you've said about the incorrect vowels being the same as in one of the daughter languages of YZ is throwing me off. Y has [aː], [à], and [a], while Z has [aɐ̯], [ə̀], and [ə]. In my original reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Y, but that was incorrect. Similarly, in my second reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Z, but that was incorrect as well. Am I missing or overlooking something? I'm going to leave them as they are for now.
Oh my goodness I can't believe I said that. I must've been looking at YZ. So sorry, glad you were still able to get them all right.
No worries! 



ABCD [xaːˈræcçi] - [ˈʍurcçe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːcçe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]

A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæwym] - [ˈjiːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: take off the initial t, and then only the stressed vowel and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: the medial consonant is off
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Yeah, I think Words 2 and 3 are definitely going to be giving me the most trouble. 

Ah, in Word 3, I'd been thinking that A-H had a long vowel which diphthongized in ABCD, but that doesn't sound like it's the case.
Word two had vowel loss followed by metathesis to repair problems caused by the vowel loss in a daughter.

A-H had two vowels separated by an intervening consonant in word 3, just as you reconstructed. Just gotta get the intervening consonant correct.
It may turn out to be wrong next round, but I currently feel like [t] makes the most sense for the third consonant in Word 2. I don't have any real reason for changing the stressed vowel to [o] in particular, though.

For the medial consonant in Word 3, I guess I'm putting [w] for now.

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈlɑtˤ] - [ˈlɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [ʃsæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the long vowel and the following consonant are off
Word 2: the initial and the syllabic portion of the diphthong are off
Word 3: only the final vowel is correct, but you're right about the other segments being: a coronal affricate, a front unrounded vowel, and a lateral
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 That's what I figured, but it's always nice to have confirmation. Oh, I actually already had pharyngealized consonants for IJKLM before reading this! Hopefully I'm on the right track here, but I'm not entirely sure that the four pharyngealized consonants I've reconstructed are all correct. I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. 

So there is a uvular in Word 1 in NOPQ, but not [q]? Hm… I guess I'll have to go back and change that, but to what I'm not sure.

Hopefully I've guessed the MOA of Word 4's initial consonant correctly, but if not, I can always try the other option next time.
You got the pharyngealized consonants and the initial of 4 correct! Try a different uvular in NOPQ1 next time, if you get it, it'll make reconstructing that consonant in I-Q much easier.
Hopefully I'm at least a little closer this time. 

RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [wóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʀìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [wóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʀìːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the initial is off, should be the same as RSTUV when you get it right
Word 3: the initial is off, is the same as a daughter (based on my other comments, shouldn't be too hard to figure out which one)
Word 4: the initial is off, should be the same as RSTUV when you get it right
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 So, you've said that WXYZ should be more helpful for reconstructing the consonants in Word 4, but I feel better about [rr] > [ʀ] than [ʀ] > [rr]. Maybe I'll have to change it next time, but that's what I'm going with now.
Technically the [rr] is incorrect, but you are right otherwise, that the RSTUV initial is the R-Z initial.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 Oh, I think I see what you mean about "mucho". Hopefully I'm on the right track. As for the vowel, perhaps just [a]? Hmm…
Good job!
Hopefully I've correctly interpreted what you've said about Word 3. 

The fact that I have initial [ʀ] in Word 4 for both RSTUV and WXYZ makes me wonder if I should also have initial [ʙ] for both in Word 2. If [ʀ] ends up being correct, and [w] ends up being incorrect, I may try [ʙ] next time. 

To clarify, when you say that a segment in R-Z should be the same as in RSTUV, does that necessarily mean that the corresponding segment should be different in WXYZ? Hopefully that makes sense.




A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæwym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [wóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʀìːke]

A-Z [ʃʃaːˈrati] - [ˈworde] - [ˈɟʝalym] - [ˈriːʕke]
Ratsawn wrote: 21 Jan 2021 19:31 Word 1: the initial is off, as is the stressed vowel. The [rr] is not a geminate, but there is a geminate in this word
Word 2: the initial is incorrect and should only be one consonant. Additionally, one other consonant is partially incorrect
Word 3: the initial is off
Word 4: missing a consonant, and the initial is off (should be a single consonant). The initial looks like it dissolved too much in the daughters, so there's a few consonants I'll mark correct for this one.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I don't know if I've correctly understood your comments about Word 4.
Hopefully it's clearer here. The initial should be one consonant, but there needs to be another consonant somewhere in the word.
shimobaatar wrote: 16 Jan 2021 22:10 I may have relied too heavily on R-Z for Word 3.
I'm glad you did! Only one consonant off.

You came really close on all the proto-forms this round. I wouldn't be surprised if you get most or all of them next round, and I'm sure you'll definitely get it the following if not next round.
Thanks for your feedback!

I'm tentatively assuming that the initial consonant of Word 1 is a geminate, since [r] isn't. 

For Word 2, I'm assuming that [t] is the partially incorrect consonant, but I'm not sure how exactly I should change it. The only thing I can think of is to make it voiced because of I-Q, but I don't know if [t] instead of [d] would count as "partially incorrect". I guess we'll see. 

I'm honestly just kind of guessing with the initial consonants of Words 3 and 4. As for the consonant that's missing from Word 4, I'm kind of stumped, although maybe it has something to do with why [k] is pharyngealized in I-Q? I'm not sure.
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's fourth attempt:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlæcçi] - [ˈuɸcçe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯cçe]
It's still just that one consonant. I'm just gonna give it to you, since this one consonant shouldn't be such a big deal. [tʃ]. Since it was one of the modern forms, I can't believe you didn't try it. Sorry if I spoiled the fun.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈjəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: you know, I realize that the consonant can have some alternative reconstructions. s would've worked now that I'm thinking about it. [ʃ] is the correct value. Sorry for the poor responses here
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 I saw that, but I suppose I still don't really understand what it means for me in this context.
I just meant that I might've given contradictory comments before and after certain changes. Water under the bridge now.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Thanks for your feedback! Oh, wow, the possibility of metathesis here somehow never occurred to me, but I love it! Hopefully I've made the right choice with Word 1.
I saw this type of metathesis in a Biblaridion video and I just thought it was so fascinating so I had to put it in.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈqotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
The second to last consonant of word 1 is still incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Thank you! OK, so [c-θ], [k-ð], and [k-dð] have all been incorrect. I'm going to try [q-t] this time based partially on NO.

And wow, [ʔ] > [t]! What was the "inspiration", so to speak, for that? I quickly skimmed the Index Diachronica just now, but I must have missed it.
I'll give you a hint, the correspondence features the same consonant in both N and O.

As for that change, there's a Trans-New Guinea language (Yagaria) which underwent a change [ʔv] > [t]. Because there is no logical reason why the [v] should move to [t], I extrapolated that the [v] was not inherently necessary to fortify the [ʔ] into [t]. A bit wild, I know.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 AB [xae̯ˈlæcçi] - [ˈuɸcçe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯cçe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [xaːˈræcçi] - [ˈʍurcçe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːcçe]
See my above comments for the identity of the affricate.

The initial in word 2 is off. It fortified in CD, but it also devoiced there too...
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Hmm, then I must have misinterpreted one of your previous comments about certain unspecified consonants being incorrect as referring in part to either [r] or [l]. 

I'm not sure what else to try for the initial consonant of Word 2, since [p], [ɸ], and [pɸ] haven't been correct. [ʍ] is honestly just a random guess. Can I ask if there even is an initial consonant? In other words, should it actually be something like [ˈuCrcçe] instead of [ˈCurcçe]?
I said [l] was incorrect, but never [r]. The initial is so so close! You'll get it next time.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈjəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈlɑtˤ] - [ˈlɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
Word 1: [l] is incorrect
Word 2: [l] is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 The phrasing of your comment on Word 1 makes me wonder if it should be a pharyngealized, rather than velarized, [l] in Words 1 and 2. However, I think there were only supposed to be 4 pharyngealized consonants in I-Q, if I remember correctly, and the laterals weren't among them. I may just try [l] this round because I can't think of anything else.
Shoot, I'm so sorry, I typed nonpharyngealized consonant and then thought it might be misleading, so I clarified, which misled you even more. So sorry. It is alveolar, without any secondary articulation, and is the same as its reflex in the larger group I-Q.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈqotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

NOPQ [ʃsæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Word 1: the initial is off (see below)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Trying to wrap my head around the original structure of Word 1 here is probably the hardest part of all of this. 

For the initial consonant of Word 2, I think [ɢ] was incorrect but "very close", so I guess I'll try [ʁ] this time. 

(Also, all of the quotes from here on out in your most recent response post appear to be attributed to ɶʙ ɞʛ instead of me. I'm not sure how that happened, but I've tried to fix it here.)
You've got word 1's structure down! The initial was a geminate and it is one of the consonants you've placed in the initial currently.

[ʁ] is absolutely right!

The quote thing is so weird, especially considering that they're all things you said. The computer glitch could've picked any user on this platform to attribute them to, sometimes technology is baffling.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]

RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [wóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʀìːtse]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the initial is still off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial is still off
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Since it sounds like the initial consonant of Word 4 is a rhotic, but not [r], and since trills became geminate fricatives in UV (unless I'm reading that wrong), I'm going to try a non-geminate [ʀ] this round. 

As for the extra segment in Word 1, I tried removing the initial glottal stop before, but that didn't seem to be correct. [ɣ] seems like it might be my best bet, then, although I can't think of any examples of [ɣ]-insertion off the top of my head to explain UV. 

For the initial consonant of Word 2, I can't say I currently have any particularly strong feelings about what it might be, other than something at least partially labial. I may just put [w] for now, because of UV.
I'm sorry if my comments mislead you here, I think I was clear but I can see how it was misinterpreted. The trill > geminate fricative change occurred between proto-world and proto-R-Z (note: the inital in proto-world word 4 was not a trill, it became a uvular trill and then changed to a geminate fricative). So RSTUV is in the "geminate fricative" stage, and your guess this time is closer than previous guesses.

As for word 2, the initial is voiced and labial (though not necessarily bilabial...), and on top of that is the initial for that word in proto-world.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]

WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 ABCD [xaːˈræcçi] - [ˈʍurcçe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːcçe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]

A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæwym] - [ˈjiːke]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the medial consonant is off
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 For the medial consonant in Word 3, I guess I'm putting [w] for now.
This consonant did not change in either of the daughters, but due to a stress shift and vowel loss, I can see how easy it is to miss. So it's a one-to-one correspondence, should be easy to find now.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈlɑtˤ] - [ˈlɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [ʃsæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
All correct! Great job!
(I did make a couple alterations to my alternate reconstructions here, so that helped you a bit)
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [wóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʀìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [wóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʀìːke]
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the initial is off (same as RSTUV and as proto-world)
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial is off (same as RSTUV)
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 The fact that I have initial [ʀ] in Word 4 for both RSTUV and WXYZ makes me wonder if I should also have initial [ʙ] for both in Word 2. If [ʀ] ends up being correct, and [w] ends up being incorrect, I may try [ʙ] next time. 

To clarify, when you say that a segment in R-Z should be the same as in RSTUV, does that necessarily mean that the corresponding segment should be different in WXYZ? Hopefully that makes sense.
So technically [ʀ] is an alternative reconstruction for [ʁ] in WXYZ, which is because geminates were lost wholesale in WXYZ from R-Z. Don't try [ʙ] next time, see my comments above.

If a segment was the same in WXYZ, I would've let you know.
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæwym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [wóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʀìːke]

A-Z [ʃʃaːˈrati] - [ˈworde] - [ˈɟʝalym] - [ˈriːʕke]
Word 1: ah, the geminate is on the only one you didn't try... bummer. Also the initial is off, it should match one of the daughter langs
Word 2: the initial and [d] are incorrect (remember the initial is the same as R-Z)
Word 3: the initial affricate is still off, and matched one of the daughters as well (p.s. one consonant in this word didn't change in any of the daughters)
Word 4: the initial and the pharyngeal are off, but... that pharyngeal is just in the wrong spot...
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 For Word 2, I'm assuming that [t] is the partially incorrect consonant, but I'm not sure how exactly I should change it. The only thing I can think of is to make it voiced because of I-Q, but I don't know if [t] instead of [d] would count as "partially incorrect". I guess we'll see. 

I'm honestly just kind of guessing with the initial consonants of Words 3 and 4. As for the consonant that's missing from Word 4, I'm kind of stumped, although maybe it has something to do with why [k] is pharyngealized in I-Q? I'm not sure.
I'm trying to be pretty consistent with my comments, "partially correct/incorrect" always means "there should be a secondary articulation" if there isn't one, or "the secondary articulation is wrong/shouldn't be there" if there is one.

The pharyngeal you've reconstructed is misplaced, but the consonant that should go there is the reason that [k] is pharyngealized in I-Q. The same change made the pharyngealized [t] in I-Q.

You're so close on everything! I can't wait to see your next guess!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

I've had my next attempt prepared for some time now, but before I post it, is ɶʙ ɞʛ or anyone else planning on making another attempt?
ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

I'm not planning another attempt.
As for that change, there's a Trans-New Guinea language (Yagaria) which underwent a change [ʔv] > [t]. Because there is no logical reason why the [v] should move to [t], I extrapolated that the [v] was not inherently necessary to fortify the [ʔ] into [t]. A bit wild, I know.
What were the corresponding reflexes for other consonants? Did combinations like [ʔm], [ʔʟ], [ʔs] also produce stops? Also, you would expect [ʔv] to shift to [p], not [t].
I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
Also, how does [ʋV̰] become [ŋV] in word 1 but [ɲV] in word 2? There is absolutely no sign of a palatal in these languages for word 2.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 04 Feb 2021 17:50 What were the corresponding reflexes for other consonants? Did combinations like [ʔm], [ʔʟ], [ʔs] also produce stops? Also, you would expect [ʔv] to shift to [p], not [t].
You're right, I would expect that too, but this seemed like a case of a natlang already did it worse. The complete change is:

ʔv ʔm ʔɡ ʔr → t p k v (also the language was actually Gimi)
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 04 Feb 2021 17:50 Also, how does [ʋV̰] become [ŋV] in word 1 but [ɲV] in word 2? There is absolutely no sign of a palatal in these languages for word 2.
This was because in [ʋ] became [m] first, and then it was lost medially and they changed together initially into [ɲ]. I had in mind Latin [ŋn] becoming [ɲ] in a lot of its daughters.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Fifth & final attempt:
Spoiler:
A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlætʃi] - [ˈuɸtʃe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯tʃe]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 It's still just that one consonant. I'm just gonna give it to you, since this one consonant shouldn't be such a big deal. [tʃ]. Since it was one of the modern forms, I can't believe you didn't try it. Sorry if I spoiled the fun.
No, not at all! I greatly appreciate being "put out of my misery" in situations like these. 

Trying [tʃ] occurred to me early on, after seeing that [c] was incorrect, but [c] (or something similar) becoming [tʃ] seemed far more likely than the reverse. 

C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈʃəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: you know, I realize that the consonant can have some alternative reconstructions. s would've worked now that I'm thinking about it. [ʃ] is the correct value. Sorry for the poor responses here
Word 4: Correct!
No worries! Thank you for clearing that up.

I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 I saw this type of metathesis in a Biblaridion video and I just thought it was so fascinating so I had to put it in.
Oh, which one? My memory seems to be failing me.

L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈχotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 The second to last consonant of word 1 is still incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Thank you! OK, so [c-θ], [k-ð], and [k-dð] have all been incorrect. I'm going to try [q-t] this time based partially on NO.

And wow, [ʔ] > [t]! What was the "inspiration", so to speak, for that? I quickly skimmed the Index Diachronica just now, but I must have missed it.
I'll give you a hint, the correspondence features the same consonant in both N and O.
I have to admit I'm not really sure how to take this. N [aɴˈqχɔdə] and O [iχˈχoda] both have [-d-], but it's the second to last consonant in my reconstruction of Word 1 for PQ that's the problem. Are you referring to the fact that both N and O have [χ], although it's part of an affricate in N? I'll try that for now, I guess, but I suspect that your actual intended meaning here has gone completely over my head.
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 As for that change, there's a Trans-New Guinea language (Yagaria) which underwent a change [ʔv] > [t]. Because there is no logical reason why the [v] should move to [t], I extrapolated that the [v] was not inherently necessary to fortify the [ʔ] into [t]. A bit wild, I know.
Ah, cool! You can often rely on that part of the world for these kinds of "out-there" sound changes.  

R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!


AB [xae̯ˈlætʃi] - [ˈuɸtʃe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯tʃe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [xaːˈrætʃi] - [ˈwurtʃe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːtʃe]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 See my above comments for the identity of the affricate.

The initial in word 2 is off. It fortified in CD, but it also devoiced there too...
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Hmm, then I must have misinterpreted one of your previous comments about certain unspecified consonants being incorrect as referring in part to either [r] or [l]. 

I'm not sure what else to try for the initial consonant of Word 2, since [p], [ɸ], and [pɸ] haven't been correct. [ʍ] is honestly just a random guess. Can I ask if there even is an initial consonant? In other words, should it actually be something like [ˈuCrcçe] instead of [ˈCurcçe]?
I said [l] was incorrect, but never [r]. The initial is so so close! You'll get it next time.
Right, what I meant was that I had [r] in my first attempt at reconstructing Word 1 for ABCD, [kaːˈræci], but after I was told that two of the consonants were incorrect, I mistakenly assumed that [r] was one of those two. 

As for the initial consonant of Word 2, you're definitely more confident in my ability to get it right this time than I am, haha. I gather that it's voiced and not a stop. Based on A-H, I'm going to put [w] for now.

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈʃəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!

IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈrɑtˤ] - [ˈrɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: [l] is incorrect
Word 2: [l] is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 The phrasing of your comment on Word 1 makes me wonder if it should be a pharyngealized, rather than velarized, [l] in Words 1 and 2. However, I think there were only supposed to be 4 pharyngealized consonants in I-Q, if I remember correctly, and the laterals weren't among them. I may just try [l] this round because I can't think of anything else.
Shoot, I'm so sorry, I typed nonpharyngealized consonant and then thought it might be misleading, so I clarified, which misled you even more. So sorry. It is alveolar, without any secondary articulation, and is the same as its reflex in the larger group I-Q.
Ah, no worries! 

For the correspondence between IJK [ʋ] : LM [l], I was stuck thinking that something like [l] > [ɫ] > [w] > [ʋ] had taken place in IJK. I've heard of, for instance, [ʋ] occurring as a realization of the English rhotic before, so in hindsight, [r] (assuming that's correct) makes sense, but I don't encounter any of the English varieties with [ʋ] for /ɹ/ frequently enough for it to have come to mind sooner. 

NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈχotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

NOPQ [ssæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: the initial is off (see below)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Trying to wrap my head around the original structure of Word 1 here is probably the hardest part of all of this. 

For the initial consonant of Word 2, I think [ɢ] was incorrect but "very close", so I guess I'll try [ʁ] this time. 

(Also, all of the quotes from here on out in your most recent response post appear to be attributed to ɶʙ ɞʛ instead of me. I'm not sure how that happened, but I've tried to fix it here.)
You've got word 1's structure down! The initial was a geminate and it is one of the consonants you've placed in the initial currently.

[ʁ] is absolutely right!

The quote thing is so weird, especially considering that they're all things you said. The computer glitch could've picked any user on this platform to attribute them to, sometimes technology is baffling.
For the initial geminate consonant of Word 1, I think I'm going to go with [ss-] this round, since both NO and PQ apparently have [-s-]. 

As for the quote thing, "baffling" is certainly a good word for it!

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]

RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [vóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʁʁìːtse]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the initial is still off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial is still off
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 Since it sounds like the initial consonant of Word 4 is a rhotic, but not [r], and since trills became geminate fricatives in UV (unless I'm reading that wrong), I'm going to try a non-geminate [ʀ] this round. 

As for the extra segment in Word 1, I tried removing the initial glottal stop before, but that didn't seem to be correct. [ɣ] seems like it might be my best bet, then, although I can't think of any examples of [ɣ]-insertion off the top of my head to explain UV. 

For the initial consonant of Word 2, I can't say I currently have any particularly strong feelings about what it might be, other than something at least partially labial. I may just put [w] for now, because of UV.
I'm sorry if my comments mislead you here, I think I was clear but I can see how it was misinterpreted. The trill > geminate fricative change occurred between proto-world and proto-R-Z (note: the inital in proto-world word 4 was not a trill, it became a uvular trill and then changed to a geminate fricative). So RSTUV is in the "geminate fricative" stage, and your guess this time is closer than previous guesses.

As for word 2, the initial is voiced and labial (though not necessarily bilabial...), and on top of that is the initial for that word in proto-world.
No apologies necessary. Something can be written out clearly enough and still wind up being misinterpreted. So, Word 4 in RSTUV begins with a geminate fricative? I had [rr-] there as part of my third attempt, and your response was that "the initial is the wrong rhotic", which makes it sound like Word 4 should begin with some kind of rhotic, just not [r-]. Since Word 4 in RST begins with [q-], perhaps my mistake last time was putting [ʀ-] instead of [ʁʁ-]?

Regarding the initial consonant of Word 2 here, I've already tried [ɸ], [p], and [w]. It's now been confirmed that it should be a voiced consonant, and with the way you've worded your response, I think I'm going to avoid trying any more bilabials. This consonant is apparently the same as the initial consonant of Word 2 in R-Z and A-Z, but I haven't figured those out yet, either. I seem to have confirmation that this word begins with [w-] in A-H, [r-] in I-Q, and [ʙ-] in WXYZ, and that this mystery consonant yields [p-] in in RST and [w-] in UV. Given that it's voiced and "not necessarily bilabial", my first thought is [w-], on the basis of A-H and UV, but I've already tried that. Further below, you've told me to steer clear of [ʙ] for R-Z, and it's bilabial, so I won't be trying that, either. The fact that it's labial but "not necessarily bilabial" makes me consider [v]. If that's not it, I'll probably try something labialized next time (if there is a next time). 

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]

WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
Thank you!



ABCD [xaːˈrætʃi] - [ˈwurtʃe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːtʃe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]

A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæjym] - [ˈjiːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the medial consonant is off
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 For the medial consonant in Word 3, I guess I'm putting [w] for now.
This consonant did not change in either of the daughters, but due to a stress shift and vowel loss, I can see how easy it is to miss. So it's a one-to-one correspondence, should be easy to find now.
There must be something that I'm just not getting here somehow. I'm going to try to lay out what I'm thinking, and hopefully the source of my confusion will become clear.

Below, as part of your response to my reconstruction of Word 3 for A-Z, you wrote that "one consonant in this word didn't change in any of the daughters". My previous reconstruction of the word in question was [ˈɟʝalym]. I've now adjusted it to [ˈdʒalym], but I assume that [-l-] and [-m] are correct since only the affricate seems to have been identified as incorrect.  

It looks like my reconstructions of Word 3 for I-Q ([ˈdzæli]) and R-Z ([dʒalý]) have been confirmed as correct. These two words have different affricates and have both lost [-m], so the only consonant they have in common is [-l-]. If the medial consonant is the only issue with my reconstruction of Word 3 in A-H, then it looks like A-H retains the final [-m] and has [j-] instead of an affricate. 

The three consonants in Word 3 in A-Z seem to have been an affricate, [-l-], and [-m]. All three daughter languages have a different initial consonant, and only one preserves the final [-m]. I-Q and R-Z both have medial [-l-], though. Therefore, in order for it to be true that one of Word 3's original consonants has not changed in any of its daughters, it seems like the medial consonant of Word 3 in A-H would have to be [-l-]. 

However, you've said that the medial consonant of Word 3 in A-H "did not change in either of the daughters". My reconstructions of Word 3 for ABCD ([ˈjæy̯m]) and EFGH ([iˈjui̯m]) seem to have been confirmed as correct, but neither of these has [-l-]. I also tried [-l-] here before. What these two words do share, though, is [-j-]. I'd been assuming that, at least in ABCD, this [-j-] came from the initial [j-] that seems to have been present originally in A-H. However, given what you've said about stress shifts and vowel loss and there being a one-to-one correspondence, perhaps [j] in both ABCD and EFGH comes from an original medial [-j-]? 

If that's the case, though, I'm not sure how to reconcile your comments on the consonants of Word 3 in A-Z and its daughters with your comments on the consonants of Word 3 in A-H and its daughters. I'm sorry, since you've said this should be easy, but again, there's got to be something here that I'm just not getting for whatever reason. 

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈrɑtˤ] - [ˈrɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [ssæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 All correct! Great job!
(I did make a couple alterations to my alternate reconstructions here, so that helped you a bit)
Thank you!

RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [vóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʁʁìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [vóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʁʁìːke]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the initial is off (same as RSTUV and as proto-world)
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial is off (same as RSTUV)
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 The fact that I have initial [ʀ] in Word 4 for both RSTUV and WXYZ makes me wonder if I should also have initial [ʙ] for both in Word 2. If [ʀ] ends up being correct, and [w] ends up being incorrect, I may try [ʙ] next time. 

To clarify, when you say that a segment in R-Z should be the same as in RSTUV, does that necessarily mean that the corresponding segment should be different in WXYZ? Hopefully that makes sense.
So technically [ʀ] is an alternative reconstruction for [ʁ] in WXYZ, which is because geminates were lost wholesale in WXYZ from R-Z. Don't try [ʙ] next time, see my comments above.
Hopefully I'm at least on the right track here.
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 If a segment was the same in WXYZ, I would've let you know.
Ah, sorry, I wasn't sure if I could take that for granted. 




A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæjym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [vóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʁʁìːke]

A-Z [sˤaːˈratti] - [ˈvortˤe] - [ˈdʒalym] - [ˈʕiːkke]
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48 Word 1: ah, the geminate is on the only one you didn't try... bummer. Also the initial is off, it should match one of the daughter langs
Word 2: the initial and [d] are incorrect (remember the initial is the same as R-Z)
Word 3: the initial affricate is still off, and matched one of the daughters as well (p.s. one consonant in this word didn't change in any of the daughters)
Word 4: the initial and the pharyngeal are off, but... that pharyngeal is just in the wrong spot...
For the initial consonant of Word 1, I guess I have to figure out whether [sˤ] or [ʂ] is original. I can't think of any natural precedents for either [sˤ] > [ʂ] or [ʂ] > [sˤ] off the top of my head, but I could definitely see just [ʂ] > [s], with the pharyngealization being a later development in I-Q. Unless I'm totally off-base, two of the pharyngealized consonants in I-Q seem to come from geminates, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the other two pharyngealized consonants had to have arisen the same way. 

Actually, on that note, I feel like this I-Q [sˤ] : R-Z [ʂ] correspondence could be related in some way to the correspondence between I-Q [dˤ] : R-Z [ʈ]. Based on your comments below, I gather that the third consonant in Word 2 is [t] with some kind of secondary articulation. I'd originally been assuming that R-Z [ʈ] in Word 2 came from [-rt-], but now, I might try [sˤ-] in Word 1 and [-tˤ-] in Word 2, with the apparent assumption that [tˤ sˤ] became retroflex [ʈ ʂ] in R-Z. We'll see how this turns out, I suppose. 

For the initial consonant of Word 3, I appear to have another choice to make, this time between [dz-] and [dʒ-]. I'm going to try [dʒ], I suppose. 
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Jan 2021 20:48
shimobaatar wrote: 24 Jan 2021 18:45 For Word 2, I'm assuming that [t] is the partially incorrect consonant, but I'm not sure how exactly I should change it. The only thing I can think of is to make it voiced because of I-Q, but I don't know if [t] instead of [d] would count as "partially incorrect". I guess we'll see. 

I'm honestly just kind of guessing with the initial consonants of Words 3 and 4. As for the consonant that's missing from Word 4, I'm kind of stumped, although maybe it has something to do with why [k] is pharyngealized in I-Q? I'm not sure.
I'm trying to be pretty consistent with my comments, "partially correct/incorrect" always means "there should be a secondary articulation" if there isn't one, or "the secondary articulation is wrong/shouldn't be there" if there is one.

The pharyngeal you've reconstructed is misplaced, but the consonant that should go there is the reason that [k] is pharyngealized in I-Q. The same change made the pharyngealized [t] in I-Q.
Ah, OK. I appreciate having that laid out like that, since it's hard to gauge that kind of consistency, so to speak, when you don't have the full picture yet.

Hopefully I've correctly interpreted what you've said about the pharyngeal and pharyngealization.
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

Wow. I'm kinda blown away. I'll post a formal response hopefully before the weekend is up, and a list of sound changes not more than a week after that (sorry I'm busy as of late).

I just wanted to congratulate SHIMOBAATAR! You got all four of the proto-forms exactly right! Great job! I hereby pass the baton to you.
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's winning attempt:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]

AB [xae̯ˈlætʃi] - [ˈuɸtʃe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯tʃe]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]

CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]

EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]

GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈʃəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]

IJK [ʃɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 Oh, which one? My memory seems to be failing me.
It was in his triconsonantal roots video, he talked a lot about metathesis in that one.
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]

LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]

NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]

PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈχotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 I have to admit I'm not really sure how to take this. N [aɴˈqχɔdə] and O [iχˈχoda] both have [-d-], but it's the second to last consonant in my reconstruction of Word 1 for PQ that's the problem. Are you referring to the fact that both N and O have [χ], although it's part of an affricate in N? I'll try that for now, I guess, but I suspect that your actual intended meaning here has gone completely over my head.
OH CRAP! I wrote N and O instead of P and Q! You totally would've gotten it otherwise! Both P and Q have [j] and that is a direct correspondence, so the proto-form should be [tʃəsæi̯ˈjotə]. Dang it, I'm so mad at myself.

Otherwise, all correct.
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]

RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]

UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]

WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]

YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 AB [xae̯ˈlætʃi] - [ˈuɸtʃe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯tʃe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]

ABCD [xaːˈrætʃi] - [ˈwurtʃe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːtʃe]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈti] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈʃəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]

EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]

IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈrɑtˤ] - [ˈrɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 NO [isˈqʰodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɮˈɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈχotə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

NOPQ [ssæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯lɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]

RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [vóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʁʁìːtse]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]

WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 ABCD [xaːˈrætʃi] - [ˈwurtʃe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːtʃe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjui̯m] - [jiˈke]

A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæjym] - [ˈjiːke]
All correct! Great job!

I don't really know what happened with my comments there. You got it though. Sorry for the confusion.
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈrɑtˤ] - [ˈrɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [ssæːˈʁotə] - [ˈʁæːdɮə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]

I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 RSTUV [ʔɑzzài̯tsi] - [vóːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [ʁʁìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]

R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [vóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʁʁìːke]
All correct! Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 04 Feb 2021 21:10 A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈworte] - [ˈjæjym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤɑːˈrɑtˤə] - [ˈrɑu̯dˤe] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [vóʈɤ] - [dʒalý] - [ʁʁìːke]

A-Z [sˤaːˈratti] - [ˈvortˤe] - [ˈdʒalym] - [ˈʕiːkke]
Great job! WOOHOO! You got 'em all!

The general premise of my challenge centered on those pharyngealized consonants. They were to be treated differently in each major branch: Lost in A-H, more of them added in I-Q, and turned to other consonant series in R-Z. I had a lot of fun with this, and my next one will be easier. I hope you had fun too. Great job!
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