(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2869
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

Khemehekis wrote: 04 May 2022 03:27 Is the onio- in the word "oniomania" cognate with the English word "own"?
Digging through Wiktionary suggests not. "Own" goes back to *h₂eyḱ- while the "onos" in "onio-" goes back to PIE *wósn̥ (from the root *wes-)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Khemehekis
runic
runic
Posts: 3171
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Khemehekis »

sangi39 wrote: 04 May 2022 09:27 Digging through Wiktionary suggests not. "Own" goes back to *h₂eyḱ- while the "onos" in "onio-" goes back to PIE *wósn̥ (from the root *wes-)
Oh, all right. I wondered. Seems like a false cognate!
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 79,617 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
Nel Fie
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 May 2022 15:18

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nel Fie »

Are there any differences or patterns as to how tonal languages place tones in relationship to the speaker's natural "rest" pitch?

I've been told by a speaker that Mandarin uses the voice's rest pitch for the lowest parts in its tones (amongst much other useful information). But do all tonal languages do it that way? Or are there tonal languages that use the speaker's rest pitch for a mid tone - going beneath it for a low tone, for example?
:deu: Native (Swabian) | :fra: Native (Belgian) | :eng: Fluent | :rus: Beginner
Twitter | DeviantArt | YouTube
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4542
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

I think this question can be formulated in term of markedness. Is the low tone always the unmarked tone? The answer is: no, in some languages the mid tone is unmarked.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6056
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Creyeditor wrote: 26 May 2022 13:09 I think this question can be formulated in term of markedness. Is the low tone always the unmarked tone? The answer is: no, in some languages the mid tone is unmarked.
But, do languages with only two tones, namely a low level tone and a high level tone, always make the low one the unmarked one?
I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority do, but I could be wrong about nearly anything.
User avatar
Nel Fie
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 May 2022 15:18

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nel Fie »

Creyeditor wrote: 26 May 2022 13:09 I think this question can be formulated in term of markedness. Is the low tone always the unmarked tone? The answer is: no, in some languages the mid tone is unmarked.
Good point. It would certainly make sense, thank you.
Last edited by Nel Fie on 26 May 2022 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
:deu: Native (Swabian) | :fra: Native (Belgian) | :eng: Fluent | :rus: Beginner
Twitter | DeviantArt | YouTube
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4542
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Right, so I think googling[ "unmarked high" tone phonetics] might give you examples of languages that have been argued to have an unmarked high tone.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2609
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

Creyeditor wrote: 26 May 2022 19:58 Right, so I think googling[ "unmarked high" tone phonetics] might give you examples of languages that have been argued to have an unmarked high tone.
I haven't googled this, but I know there are even languages in which stress is marked by a lower tone, so I'd have thought it almost certain that regular low tone is sometimes considered marked.
User avatar
Nel Fie
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 May 2022 15:18

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nel Fie »

Salmoneus wrote: 26 May 2022 20:49
Creyeditor wrote: 26 May 2022 19:58 Right, so I think googling[ "unmarked high" tone phonetics] might give you examples of languages that have been argued to have an unmarked high tone.
I haven't googled this, but I know there are even languages in which stress is marked by a lower tone, so I'd have thought it almost certain that regular low tone is sometimes considered marked.
First off all, apologies for my last reply, it ended up a bit nonsensical due to me getting a few wires crossed in the process of writing it.

That said, I searched and found what seems like a good paper on the topic: Markedness and the Phonological Typology of Two-Height Tone Systems, by Larry M. Hyman

It certainly confirms that in a two-tone system either tone can be marked, although marking of the high tone seems more common. Beyond that, I'm out of my depth in terms of theory here, and it'll probably take a while and a few rereadings to fully digest and understand the paper itself. However, based on what I can gather, it seems that markedness and production of tone are not inherently tied, so the initial question might be back to square one.
eldin raigmore wrote: 26 May 2022 16:36 But, do languages with only two tones, namely a low level tone and a high level tone, always make the low one the unmarked one?
I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority do, but I could be wrong about nearly anything.
As per my understanding of Creyeditor, Salmoneus and the paper linked above, either tone can be marked in a two tone system. It seems almost by necessity in some cases (unless I'm completely misunderstanding the terminology) as Hyman writes of languages with a low tone and a neutral tone. In such a case, I'd assume only the low tone could be marked - and I think Hyman makes that very point in the conclusion?
:deu: Native (Swabian) | :fra: Native (Belgian) | :eng: Fluent | :rus: Beginner
Twitter | DeviantArt | YouTube
Post Reply