Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Current language
*p *t *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ
*r *l
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ
*i *u
*ɛ *ɔ
*a
*ɛ and *ɔ generally did not occur in non-initial syllables except in loanwords interdialectal borrowings and compounding
*j did not occur initially except in loanwords
Generally dialects add *ts or lose *r
*p and *k were fricated intervocalically
*m was lenited to a nasalised approximate intervocalically
*j was *ð initially before *o and *u when it did occur there
*mp, *nt and *nk when they did occur had the stop element voiced
2 identical vowels in sequence or *ai, *au and sometimes *oi generally form diphtongs
CVC syllable structure maximally with stops not being able to occur before another consonant and Nasal + Stop sequences being only found in borrowings
Its ancestor
*p *t *tʲ *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ *h
*r *l *lʲ
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ
*i *u
*e *o
*ɛ *ɔ
*a
*ɛ and *ɔ generally did not occur in non-initial syllables
CVC syllable structure
*p *t *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ
*r *l
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ
*i *u
*ɛ *ɔ
*a
*ɛ and *ɔ generally did not occur in non-initial syllables except in loanwords interdialectal borrowings and compounding
*j did not occur initially except in loanwords
Generally dialects add *ts or lose *r
*p and *k were fricated intervocalically
*m was lenited to a nasalised approximate intervocalically
*j was *ð initially before *o and *u when it did occur there
*mp, *nt and *nk when they did occur had the stop element voiced
2 identical vowels in sequence or *ai, *au and sometimes *oi generally form diphtongs
CVC syllable structure maximally with stops not being able to occur before another consonant and Nasal + Stop sequences being only found in borrowings
Its ancestor
*p *t *tʲ *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ *h
*r *l *lʲ
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ
*i *u
*e *o
*ɛ *ɔ
*a
*ɛ and *ɔ generally did not occur in non-initial syllables
CVC syllable structure
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
*p *t *k *kʷ
*ts
*ɬ *s *h
*w *l *r *j
*m *n *nʲ
CVC syllable structure
Vowels
*i: *y: *ɯ: *u:
*e: *ø: *o:
*ɛ: *œ: *ʌ: *ɔ:
*a:
*e *ø *o
*ɛ *œ *ɔ
*a
*ɪ *ʏ
*ə
Vowel sequences did occur they were always long vowels followed by short vowels or short vowels followed by reduced vowels
*ts
*ɬ *s *h
*w *l *r *j
*m *n *nʲ
CVC syllable structure
Vowels
*i: *y: *ɯ: *u:
*e: *ø: *o:
*ɛ: *œ: *ʌ: *ɔ:
*a:
*e *ø *o
*ɛ *œ *ɔ
*a
*ɪ *ʏ
*ə
Vowel sequences did occur they were always long vowels followed by short vowels or short vowels followed by reduced vowels
-
- rupestrian
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Here's one from Proto-Dovalo (Still in the alpha stage)
Stops: p b t d c ɟ k g
Ejactives: pʼ tʼ cʼ kʼ
Fricatives: v s z ç ʝ
Nasals: m̥ m n̥ n ŋ̊ ŋ
Approximates: l̥ l j̊ j ʍ w
Vowels: a e o i
Syllable structure: (C)V(C)
Stress: On the second to last syllable, unless the last syllable is closed
Notable features:
-Four vowel system /a e i o/, but no /u/
-Palatal stops
-A series of ejactive stops
-A series of voiceless approximates/nasals
I'd like to have it sound "alien" and "elegant" when I fully evolve it, since that's how I view the speakers sounding (they're based on Grey Aliens, but with some "Elvish" elements)
Stops: p b t d c ɟ k g
Ejactives: pʼ tʼ cʼ kʼ
Fricatives: v s z ç ʝ
Nasals: m̥ m n̥ n ŋ̊ ŋ
Approximates: l̥ l j̊ j ʍ w
Vowels: a e o i
Syllable structure: (C)V(C)
Stress: On the second to last syllable, unless the last syllable is closed
Notable features:
-Four vowel system /a e i o/, but no /u/
-Palatal stops
-A series of ejactive stops
-A series of voiceless approximates/nasals
I'd like to have it sound "alien" and "elegant" when I fully evolve it, since that's how I view the speakers sounding (they're based on Grey Aliens, but with some "Elvish" elements)
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Something inspired by Gildin Saami.
ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk
p t c k
b d ɟ g
m̥ n̥ ɲ̥ ŋ̥
m n ɲ ŋ
t͡s t͡ɕ
f ɬ r̥ s ɕ ç h
v l r z ʑ j
Many words end in non-stop + stop
There is consonant gradation: malt - maɬt, solg - solk
ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk
p t c k
b d ɟ g
m̥ n̥ ɲ̥ ŋ̥
m n ɲ ŋ
t͡s t͡ɕ
f ɬ r̥ s ɕ ç h
v l r z ʑ j
Many words end in non-stop + stop
There is consonant gradation: malt - maɬt, solg - solk
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/p b t d tʃ dʒ k q/ <p b t d c j k q>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ŋ>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x/ <f v s z ṡ ż x>
/r l j ʎ w/ <r l y ly w>
/i y ɯ u/ <i ü ï u>
/e ø ɤ o/ <e ö ë o>
/ə ɵ/ <ă ŏ>
/a ɒ/ <a å>
All consonants can be geminates
Vowel harmony (rounding)
Coronal harmony (palatal vs. nonpalatal; r > ʒ *but ʒ still to z)
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ŋ>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x/ <f v s z ṡ ż x>
/r l j ʎ w/ <r l y ly w>
/i y ɯ u/ <i ü ï u>
/e ø ɤ o/ <e ö ë o>
/ə ɵ/ <ă ŏ>
/a ɒ/ <a å>
All consonants can be geminates
Vowel harmony (rounding)
Coronal harmony (palatal vs. nonpalatal; r > ʒ *but ʒ still to z)
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Ruykkarraber languages Ngama Areyaxi languages Arskiilz Kahóra Makihip ŋAħual 2c2ef0
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- VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Trons Bao /ʈʰõt̻̚ ɓao̯/
/fʰ t̪ʰ sʰ ʈʰ kʰ/ <f t s tr k>
/ɓ ɗ̪ z̰ ɻ̰ k’/ <b d z r g>
/m n ɳ ŋ/ <m n nr ng>
/ɭ j w/ <l y w>
/i y u e ø a/ <i uy u e o a>
/ẽ õ ã/ <en on an>
/ie̯ uo̯ yø̯ ae̯ ao̯ aø̯/ <ie uo uoy ae ao aoy>
/i̯ae̯ i̯ao̯/ <iae iao>
/-ː/ <-h>
/-p̚ -t̪̚ -t̻̚ -ʔ/ <-p -t -s -k>
/-ɭ/ <-l>
Minor syllables consist of syllabic consonants /ŋ̩ ɻ̩ f̩ s̩/ <ng r f s> which can be appended before a major syllable; /ŋ̩ɓi̯ao̯/ <ngbiao>, /s̩k’øː/ <sgoh>. Additionally, a major syllable ending in a plosive coda may take a long homorganic syllabic nasal following this; /ʈʰapm̩ː/ <trapm>, /ɳyø̯kŋ̩ː/ <nruoykng>. No words of multiple major syllables occur (allowing for about 30,000 roots which is plenty with some homophony). TB will be isolating but with typically polysynthetic features like noun "incorporation", polypersonal agreement, evidentiality etc.
Truol zan o rsae ngduk.
/ʈʰuo̯ɭ= z̰ã= ø= ɻ̩sʰae̯ ŋ̩ɗ̪uʔ/
summer= VISUAL= 1SG= whale hunt
"I will go whale-hunting in the summer (I saw it in a vision)."
cf.
Ka o ngduk.
/kʰa= ø ŋ̩ɗ̪uʔ/
ERG= 1SG hunt
"It is I who is hunting whales."
Also some dialects have /ʈ’/ for /ɻ̰/ just so that there's the orthographic correspondence r → /ʈ’/.
/fʰ t̪ʰ sʰ ʈʰ kʰ/ <f t s tr k>
/ɓ ɗ̪ z̰ ɻ̰ k’/ <b d z r g>
/m n ɳ ŋ/ <m n nr ng>
/ɭ j w/ <l y w>
/i y u e ø a/ <i uy u e o a>
/ẽ õ ã/ <en on an>
/ie̯ uo̯ yø̯ ae̯ ao̯ aø̯/ <ie uo uoy ae ao aoy>
/i̯ae̯ i̯ao̯/ <iae iao>
/-ː/ <-h>
/-p̚ -t̪̚ -t̻̚ -ʔ/ <-p -t -s -k>
/-ɭ/ <-l>
Minor syllables consist of syllabic consonants /ŋ̩ ɻ̩ f̩ s̩/ <ng r f s> which can be appended before a major syllable; /ŋ̩ɓi̯ao̯/ <ngbiao>, /s̩k’øː/ <sgoh>. Additionally, a major syllable ending in a plosive coda may take a long homorganic syllabic nasal following this; /ʈʰapm̩ː/ <trapm>, /ɳyø̯kŋ̩ː/ <nruoykng>. No words of multiple major syllables occur (allowing for about 30,000 roots which is plenty with some homophony). TB will be isolating but with typically polysynthetic features like noun "incorporation", polypersonal agreement, evidentiality etc.
Truol zan o rsae ngduk.
/ʈʰuo̯ɭ= z̰ã= ø= ɻ̩sʰae̯ ŋ̩ɗ̪uʔ/
summer= VISUAL= 1SG= whale hunt
"I will go whale-hunting in the summer (I saw it in a vision)."
cf.
Ka o ngduk.
/kʰa= ø ŋ̩ɗ̪uʔ/
ERG= 1SG hunt
"It is I who is hunting whales."
Also some dialects have /ʈ’/ for /ɻ̰/ just so that there's the orthographic correspondence r → /ʈ’/.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
p t t͡s t͡ʃ k
f s ʃ x ʍ
v z ð ʒ ɣ w
m n
l r j
i ɨ u
e ə o
æ ɑ ɒ
f s ʃ x ʍ
v z ð ʒ ɣ w
m n
l r j
i ɨ u
e ə o
æ ɑ ɒ
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
- VaptuantaDoi
- roman
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/bʲ bˠ t tɕ k kʷ ɡ ɡʷ/
/ɾ ɾʲ j w/
/ɸʲ ɸˠ s ɕ/
/ʉ ə a/
Tones H, Ø
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Nasal harmony applies rightwards from a given syllable until blocked by a voiceless segment. One or more syllables in a word can be [+nasal]. This nasalises vowels and approximants, shifts /bʲ bˠ ɾ ɾʲ ɡ ɡʷ/ → [mʲ mˠ n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ]
/bʲ bˠ t tɕ k kʷ ɡ ɡʷ ɾ ɾʲ j w ɸʲ ɸˠ s ɕ/ <by b t c k kw g gw r ry y w hy h s x>
[i˥ ʉ˧ u˩ e˥ ə˧ o˩ æ˥ a˧ ɒ˩] <í u ù é e ò á a à>
[mʲ mˠ n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ] <my m n ny ng ngw>
[V~] <Vñ> when not predictable
/kʷəNbˠáɸʲá/ → [kʷə̃˧mˠæ̃˥ɸʲɒ˩] kweñmáhyà
/ɸʲʉ́kə́ɾʲa/ → [ɸʲi˥ko˩ɾʲa˧] hyíkòrya
/ɕə́á/ → [ɕe˥ɒ˩] xéà
/kʷʉ́Nkʷʉ/ → [kʷĩ˥kʷʉ˧] kwíñkwu
/kʷəɾəNtá/ → [kʷə˧nõ˩tæ˥] kwenòtá
/ɕəNsəsʉN/ → [ɕə̃˧so˩sʉ̃˧] xeñsòsuñ
/kʷʉ́ɕáN/ → [kʷi˥ɕɒ̃˩] kwíxàñ
/bʲʉNsəkʷáɾʲʉ́/ → [mʲʉ̃˧so˩kʷæ˥ɾʲu˩] myusòkwáryù
Morphology can do funky things with vowels;
/wə́kʷʉ/ → [we˥kʷi˥] wékwí
/ɾʲʉNə/ → [ɾʲʉ̃˧õ˩] ryuñò
/sə́N-/ + /wə́kʷʉ/ → [sẽ˥w̃õ˩kʷʉ˧] séñwòñkwu
/sə́N-/ + /ɾʲʉNə/ → [sẽ˥ɾʲĩ˥ə̃˧] séñryíñe
/ɾ ɾʲ j w/
/ɸʲ ɸˠ s ɕ/
/ʉ ə a/
Tones H, Ø
- H → L following H
- Ø → H following H, unless preceding L
- Ø → M
- M → L after M
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Nasal harmony applies rightwards from a given syllable until blocked by a voiceless segment. One or more syllables in a word can be [+nasal]. This nasalises vowels and approximants, shifts /bʲ bˠ ɾ ɾʲ ɡ ɡʷ/ → [mʲ mˠ n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ]
/bʲ bˠ t tɕ k kʷ ɡ ɡʷ ɾ ɾʲ j w ɸʲ ɸˠ s ɕ/ <by b t c k kw g gw r ry y w hy h s x>
[i˥ ʉ˧ u˩ e˥ ə˧ o˩ æ˥ a˧ ɒ˩] <í u ù é e ò á a à>
[mʲ mˠ n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ] <my m n ny ng ngw>
[V~] <Vñ> when not predictable
/kʷəNbˠáɸʲá/ → [kʷə̃˧mˠæ̃˥ɸʲɒ˩] kweñmáhyà
/ɸʲʉ́kə́ɾʲa/ → [ɸʲi˥ko˩ɾʲa˧] hyíkòrya
/ɕə́á/ → [ɕe˥ɒ˩] xéà
/kʷʉ́Nkʷʉ/ → [kʷĩ˥kʷʉ˧] kwíñkwu
/kʷəɾəNtá/ → [kʷə˧nõ˩tæ˥] kwenòtá
/ɕəNsəsʉN/ → [ɕə̃˧so˩sʉ̃˧] xeñsòsuñ
/kʷʉ́ɕáN/ → [kʷi˥ɕɒ̃˩] kwíxàñ
/bʲʉNsəkʷáɾʲʉ́/ → [mʲʉ̃˧so˩kʷæ˥ɾʲu˩] myusòkwáryù
Morphology can do funky things with vowels;
/wə́kʷʉ/ → [we˥kʷi˥] wékwí
/ɾʲʉNə/ → [ɾʲʉ̃˧õ˩] ryuñò
/sə́N-/ + /wə́kʷʉ/ → [sẽ˥w̃õ˩kʷʉ˧] séñwòñkwu
/sə́N-/ + /ɾʲʉNə/ → [sẽ˥ɾʲĩ˥ə̃˧] séñryíñe
- Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Nice work on the (purely) tonal processes. Would tone spreading and tone dissimilation be iterative? I.e. ehat would you get from /H.H.H/ and what dou get from /H.∅.∅/?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
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Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
- VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
They would not be iterative; /H.H.H/ would give /H.L.H/, and /H.∅.∅/ /H.H.M/ (i.e. ∅ → H /H_ only applies after underlying H).Creyeditor wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 06:44 Nice work on the (purely) tonal processes. Would tone spreading and tone dissimilation be iterative? I.e. ehat would you get from /H.H.H/ and what dou get from /H.∅.∅/?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Interesting, bounded binary spreading. I guess this also means dissimilation only applies to underlying high tones?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Shouldn't *ʉ be analysed as *ɨ
- VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Yes. Otherwise /H.∅/ would merge with /H.H/.Creyeditor wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 08:40 Interesting, bounded binary spreading. I guess this also means dissimilation only applies to underlying high tones?
Why so? It's never realised as [ɨ], and it's realised as [ʉ] in the least marked ([+mid]) environment.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Can you explain more?VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 01:03
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Is F a formant or what?
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- VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Yes; F2 is the formant that roughly corresponds to frontness. I think F1 (~ vowel height) can be influenced by tone, so I wanted to see how a language would look like with tone influencing F2.Omzinesý wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 12:18Can you explain more?VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 01:03
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Is F a formant or what?
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Does it really happen in natlangs that tone affects vowel quality? If it does, it's new to me.VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 12:21Yes; F2 is the formant that roughly corresponds to frontness. I think F1 (~ vowel height) can be influenced by tone, so I wanted to see how a language would look like with tone influencing F2.Omzinesý wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 12:18Can you explain more?VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 01:03
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Is F a formant or what?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
- VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
It does, although not to anywhere near this extent. I can't find any actual sources but apparently Min Chinese has tone sandhi that affects vowel height. And I found a paper discussing the possibility of a shift in the other direction, but it does have a few more examples in there.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
OK, very interesting.VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023 14:47It does, although not to anywhere near this extent. I can't find any actual sources but apparently Min Chinese has tone sandhi that affects vowel height. And I found a paper discussing the possibility of a shift in the other direction, but it does have a few more examples in there.
I didn't know everything yet.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I suppose that makes sense. Overtone singing ("throat singing"), from what I've read and from what seems to happen when I practice (when I get a chance) is that it's a combination of backness and height (and rounding as well) that play a role in determining the overtone pitch (so like /i/ is higher than /e/ which is higher than /u/, etc.), so I wouldn't be too surprised to find that allophonic differences in phonemic tone to be affected by vowel quality, which could then lead to changes in the distribution of phonemic tones
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Not really an interesting phoneme inventory ser se.
But it can form personal-sounding words.
- The glottals are very frequent.
- The row 4 is devoiced when geminated.
- A putch accent that can have two peaks at most, something á la Swedish.
p t k ʔ
f s ʃ h
m n ŋ
l r j w
ð ɣ
i ɨ u
e o
æ ä
But it can form personal-sounding words.
- The glottals are very frequent.
- The row 4 is devoiced when geminated.
- A putch accent that can have two peaks at most, something á la Swedish.
p t k ʔ
f s ʃ h
m n ŋ
l r j w
ð ɣ
i ɨ u
e o
æ ä
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760