Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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thethief3
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by thethief3 »

Current language

*p *t *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ
*r *l
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ

*i *u
*ɛ *ɔ
*a

*ɛ and *ɔ generally did not occur in non-initial syllables except in loanwords interdialectal borrowings and compounding
*j did not occur initially except in loanwords
Generally dialects add *ts or lose *r
*p and *k were fricated intervocalically
*m was lenited to a nasalised approximate intervocalically
*j was *ð initially before *o and *u when it did occur there
*mp, *nt and *nk when they did occur had the stop element voiced
2 identical vowels in sequence or *ai, *au and sometimes *oi generally form diphtongs

CVC syllable structure maximally with stops not being able to occur before another consonant and Nasal + Stop sequences being only found in borrowings

Its ancestor

*p *t *tʲ *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ *h
*r *l *lʲ
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ

*i *u
*e *o
*ɛ *ɔ
*a

*ɛ and *ɔ generally did not occur in non-initial syllables
CVC syllable structure
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thethief3
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by thethief3 »

*p *t *k *kʷ
*ts
*ɬ *s *h
*w *l *r *j
*m *n *nʲ

CVC syllable structure

Vowels
*i: *y: *ɯ: *u:
*e: *ø: *o:
*ɛ: *œ: *ʌ: *ɔ:
*a:

*e *ø *o
*ɛ *œ *ɔ
*a

*ɪ *ʏ

Vowel sequences did occur they were always long vowels followed by short vowels or short vowels followed by reduced vowels
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Spider fanboy »

Here's one from Proto-Dovalo (Still in the alpha stage)

Stops: p b t d c ɟ k g
Ejactives: pʼ tʼ cʼ kʼ
Fricatives: v s z ç ʝ
Nasals: m̥ m n̥ n ŋ̊ ŋ
Approximates: l̥ l j̊ j ʍ w

Vowels: a e o i

Syllable structure: (C)V(C)

Stress: On the second to last syllable, unless the last syllable is closed

Notable features:
-Four vowel system /a e i o/, but no /u/
-Palatal stops
-A series of ejactive stops
-A series of voiceless approximates/nasals

I'd like to have it sound "alien" and "elegant" when I fully evolve it, since that's how I view the speakers sounding (they're based on Grey Aliens, but with some "Elvish" elements)
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Something inspired by Gildin Saami.

ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk
p t c k
b d ɟ g
m̥ n̥ ɲ̥ ŋ̥
m n ɲ ŋ
t͡s t͡ɕ
f ɬ r̥ s ɕ ç h
v l r z ʑ j

Many words end in non-stop + stop
There is consonant gradation: malt - maɬt, solg - solk
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Arayaz »

/p b t d tʃ dʒ k q/ <p b t d c j k q>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ŋ>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x/ <f v s z ṡ ż x>
/r l j ʎ w/ <r l y ly w>

/i y ɯ u/ <i ü ï u>
/e ø ɤ o/ <e ö ë o>
/ə ɵ/ <ă ŏ>
/a ɒ/ <a å>

All consonants can be geminates
Vowel harmony (rounding)
Coronal harmony (palatal vs. nonpalatal; r > ʒ *but ʒ still to z)
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Trons Bao /ʈʰõt̻̚ ɓao̯/

/fʰ t̪ʰ sʰ ʈʰ kʰ/ <f t s tr k>
/ɓ ɗ̪ z̰ ɻ̰ k’/ <b d z r g>
/m n ɳ ŋ/ <m n nr ng>
/ɭ j w/ <l y w>

/i y u e ø a/ <i uy u e o a>
/ẽ õ ã/ <en on an>
/ie̯ uo̯ yø̯ ae̯ ao̯ aø̯/ <ie uo uoy ae ao aoy>
/i̯ae̯ i̯ao̯/ <iae iao>
/-ː/ <-h>

/-p̚ -t̪̚ -t̻̚ -ʔ/ <-p -t -s -k>
/-ɭ/ <-l>

Minor syllables consist of syllabic consonants /ŋ̩ ɻ̩ f̩ s̩/ <ng r f s> which can be appended before a major syllable; /ŋ̩ɓi̯ao̯/ <ngbiao>, /s̩k’øː/ <sgoh>. Additionally, a major syllable ending in a plosive coda may take a long homorganic syllabic nasal following this; /ʈʰapm̩ː/ <trapm>, /⁠ɳyø̯kŋ̩ː/ <nruoykng>. No words of multiple major syllables occur (allowing for about 30,000 roots which is plenty with some homophony). TB will be isolating but with typically polysynthetic features like noun "incorporation", polypersonal agreement, evidentiality etc.

Truol zan o rsae ngduk.
/ʈʰuo̯ɭ= z̰ã= ø= ɻ̩sʰae̯ ŋ̩ɗ̪uʔ/
summer= VISUAL= 1SG= whale hunt
"I will go whale-hunting in the summer (I saw it in a vision)."

cf.

Ka o ngduk.
/kʰa= ø ŋ̩ɗ̪uʔ/
ERG= 1SG hunt
"It is I who is hunting whales."

Also some dialects have /ʈ’/ for /ɻ̰/ just so that there's the orthographic correspondence r → /ʈ’/.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý »

p t t͡s t͡ʃ k
f s ʃ x ʍ
v z ð ʒ ɣ w
m n
l r j

i ɨ u
e ə o
æ ɑ ɒ
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

/bʲ bˠ t tɕ k kʷ ɡ ɡʷ/
/ɾ ɾʲ j w/
/ɸʲ ɸˠ s ɕ/

/ʉ ə a/

Tones H, Ø
  • H → L following H
  • Ø → H following H, unless preceding L
  • Ø → M
  • M → L after M
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]

Nasal harmony applies rightwards from a given syllable until blocked by a voiceless segment. One or more syllables in a word can be [+nasal]. This nasalises vowels and approximants, shifts /bʲ bˠ ɾ ɾʲ ɡ ɡʷ/ → [mʲ mˠ n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ]

/bʲ bˠ t tɕ k kʷ ɡ ɡʷ ɾ ɾʲ j w ɸʲ ɸˠ s ɕ/ <by b t c k kw g gw r ry y w hy h s x>
[i˥ ʉ˧ u˩ e˥ ə˧ o˩ æ˥ a˧ ɒ˩] <í u ù é e ò á a à>
[mʲ mˠ n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ] <my m n ny ng ngw>
[V~] <> when not predictable

/kʷəNbˠáɸʲá/ → [kʷə̃˧mˠæ̃˥ɸʲɒ˩] kweñmáhyà
/ɸʲʉ́kə́ɾʲa/ → [ɸʲi˥ko˩ɾʲa˧] hyíkòrya
/ɕə́á/ → [ɕe˥ɒ˩] xéà
/kʷʉ́Nkʷʉ/ → [kʷĩ˥kʷʉ˧] kwíñkwu
/kʷəɾəNtá/ → [kʷə˧nõ˩tæ˥] kwenòtá
/ɕəNsəsʉN/ → [ɕə̃˧so˩sʉ̃˧] xeñsòsuñ
/kʷʉ́ɕáN/ → [kʷi˥ɕɒ̃˩] kwíxàñ
/bʲʉNsəkʷáɾʲʉ́/ → [mʲʉ̃˧so˩kʷæ˥ɾʲu˩] myusòkwáryù

Morphology can do funky things with vowels;
/wə́kʷʉ/ → [we˥kʷi˥] wékwí
/ɾʲʉNə/ → [ɾʲʉ̃˧õ˩] ryuñò
/sə́N-/ + /wə́kʷʉ/ → [sẽ˥w̃õ˩kʷʉ˧] séñwòñkwu
/sə́N-/ + /ɾʲʉNə/ → [sẽ˥ɾʲĩ˥ə̃˧] séñryíñe
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor »

Nice work on the (purely) tonal processes. Would tone spreading and tone dissimilation be iterative? I.e. ehat would you get from /H.H.H/ and what dou get from /H.∅.∅/?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Creyeditor wrote: 09 Jun 2023 06:44 Nice work on the (purely) tonal processes. Would tone spreading and tone dissimilation be iterative? I.e. ehat would you get from /H.H.H/ and what dou get from /H.∅.∅/?
They would not be iterative; /H.H.H/ would give /H.L.H/, and /H.∅.∅/ /H.H.M/ (i.e. ∅ → H /H_ only applies after underlying H).
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor »

Interesting, bounded binary spreading. I guess this also means dissimilation only applies to underlying high tones?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by thethief3 »

Shouldn't *ʉ be analysed as *ɨ
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Creyeditor wrote: 09 Jun 2023 08:40 Interesting, bounded binary spreading. I guess this also means dissimilation only applies to underlying high tones?
Yes. Otherwise /H.∅/ would merge with /H.H/.
thethief3 wrote: 09 Jun 2023 08:48 Shouldn't *ʉ be analysed as *ɨ
Why so? It's never realised as [ɨ], and it's realised as [ʉ] in the least marked ([+mid]) environment.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý »

VaptuantaDoi wrote: 09 Jun 2023 01:03
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Can you explain more?
Is F a formant or what?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Omzinesý wrote: 09 Jun 2023 12:18
VaptuantaDoi wrote: 09 Jun 2023 01:03
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Can you explain more?
Is F a formant or what?
Yes; F2 is the formant that roughly corresponds to frontness. I think F1 (~ vowel height) can be influenced by tone, so I wanted to see how a language would look like with tone influencing F2.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý »

VaptuantaDoi wrote: 09 Jun 2023 12:21
Omzinesý wrote: 09 Jun 2023 12:18
VaptuantaDoi wrote: 09 Jun 2023 01:03
This influences F2 heavily:
/ʉ ə a/ → [i e æ] [+high tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [ʉ ə a] [+mid tone]
/ʉ ə a/ → [u o ɒ] [+low tone]
Can you explain more?
Is F a formant or what?
Yes; F2 is the formant that roughly corresponds to frontness. I think F1 (~ vowel height) can be influenced by tone, so I wanted to see how a language would look like with tone influencing F2.
Does it really happen in natlangs that tone affects vowel quality? If it does, it's new to me.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Omzinesý wrote: 09 Jun 2023 14:34 Does it really happen in natlangs that tone affects vowel quality? If it does, it's new to me.
It does, although not to anywhere near this extent. I can't find any actual sources but apparently Min Chinese has tone sandhi that affects vowel height. And I found a paper discussing the possibility of a shift in the other direction, but it does have a few more examples in there.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý »

VaptuantaDoi wrote: 09 Jun 2023 14:47
Omzinesý wrote: 09 Jun 2023 14:34 Does it really happen in natlangs that tone affects vowel quality? If it does, it's new to me.
It does, although not to anywhere near this extent. I can't find any actual sources but apparently Min Chinese has tone sandhi that affects vowel height. And I found a paper discussing the possibility of a shift in the other direction, but it does have a few more examples in there.
OK, very interesting.
I didn't know everything yet.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 »

I suppose that makes sense. Overtone singing ("throat singing"), from what I've read and from what seems to happen when I practice (when I get a chance) is that it's a combination of backness and height (and rounding as well) that play a role in determining the overtone pitch (so like /i/ is higher than /e/ which is higher than /u/, etc.), so I wouldn't be too surprised to find that allophonic differences in phonemic tone to be affected by vowel quality, which could then lead to changes in the distribution of phonemic tones
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Not really an interesting phoneme inventory ser se.
But it can form personal-sounding words.
- The glottals are very frequent.
- The row 4 is devoiced when geminated.
- A putch accent that can have two peaks at most, something á la Swedish.

p t k ʔ
f s ʃ h
m n ŋ
l r j w
ð ɣ

i ɨ u
e o
æ ä
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