Omzinian Scrap thread

[Omzinesý]

p t k ʔ
s ʃ h
m n ŋ
r l
ð j ɣ w

i u
e ɘ o
æ ɒ

- Historically
p t k ʔ -> w ð ɣ h
- plosive + p t k ʔ +> p t k ʔ
- vowel elision is common
- stressed vowels lengthen in syllables that were historically open

- Bantu-style noun class markers
- Australian-style case system
* Absolutive
* Ergative
* Purposive
* Ablative
* Locative
* Dative
* Some genitive thing

- Very egg-abs syntax
* any intranstive verb can be causativised by adding an ergative argument

[Knox Adjacent]

- Bantu-style noun class markers
- Australian-style case system

Australian-style noun class markers exist analogously already, but tend to reduction of cases, especially core cases. But, it's still possible.

[Omzinesý]

- Bantu-style noun class markers
- Australian-style case system

Australian-style noun class markers exist analogously already, but tend to reduction of cases, especially core cases. But, it's still possible.

It natural that there is a negative correlation between noun classes and cases, especially if agree reference noun cases. But they can well coexist.
Is there a fundamental difference between Bantu and Australian noun classes, on this very broad level I'm speaking?

[Knox Adjacent]

No, hence the descriptor analogous and the admittance they can coexist. Analogous means it's even more plausible than bantu-style suggests.

[Omzinesý]

A speedlang

Vowels
i ɨ u <i ı>
e o <e o>
æ ɑ a <ȧ a>

There is a vowel harmony of closed and open vowels. Mid-vowels are neutral, but they rarely appear outside the first stressed syllable.

Consonants
1 ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk <p t tj k>
2 p t c k <b d dj g>
3 v ð ʝ ɣ <v đ j ḡ>
4 t͡s t͡ɕ <c cj>
5 f s ɕ h <f s sj h>
6 m n ɲ ŋ <m n nj ŋ>
7 l ʎ <l lj>
8 r <r>

/ð ɣ/ hardly ever appear word-initially.
3 are devoiced word-finally.

Both vowels and consonants can be long, but a long vowel is followed by zero or one consonants while a short vowel is followed by two consonants or a geminate.

Consonant gradation appears.
Strong - basic - weak
3 - 2 -1
4 - 5

Resonants are lengthened in the strong grade.

Nouns have two or three genders.
The indefinite form is the noun stem.

There is a vocalic ending that codes case (ergative, absolutive, oblique), gender and sometimes number.

Person prefixes (1st, 1+2nd, 2nd, 3rd) are added to verbs and to nouns as possessor markers.

Verbs have TAM inflection and many nonfinite forms. They are formed with suffixes.

[Omzinesý]

A speedlang

Vowels
i ɨ u <i ı>
e o <e o>
æ ɑ a <ȧ a>

There is a vowel harmony of closed and open vowels. Mid-vowels are neutral, but they rarely appear outside the first stressed syllable.

Consonants
1 ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk <p t tj k>
2 p t c k <b d dj g>
3 v ð ʝ ɣ <v đ j ḡ>
4 t͡s t͡ɕ <c cj>
5 f s ɕ h <f s sj h>
6 m n ɲ ŋ <m n nj ŋ>
7 l ʎ <l lj>
8 r <r>

/ð ɣ/ hardly ever appear word-initially.
3 are devoiced word-finally.

Both vowels and consonants can be long, but a long vowel is followed by zero or one consonants while a short vowel is followed by two consonants or a geminate.

Consonant gradation appears.
Strong - basic - weak
3 - 2 -1
4 - 5

Resonants are lengthened in the strong grade.

Nouns have two or three genders.
The indefinite form is the noun stem.

There is a vocalic ending that codes case (ergative, absolutive, oblique), gender and sometimes number.

Person prefixes (1st, 1+2nd, 2nd, 3rd) are added to verbs and to nouns as possessor markers.

Verbs have TAM inflection and many nonfinite forms. They are formed with suffixes + consonant gradation.

The TAM suffixes on verbs are

present, non-volitional
present, volitional
imperfect, non-volitional
imperfect, volitional
aorist, non-volitional

imperative
subjunctive (with possibly some tenses)

The non-volitional is thus the unmarked/neutral value. The volitional value means something like 'to attempt/to want (and maybe also do)'.
The aorist (perfective past) does not have a volitional value.

Code: Select all

Indicative Subjunctive 
Present volitional mar-A mart-E
Present non-volitional mart mar-F
Imperfect volitional mar-B mart-G
Imperfect non-volitional mar-C mart-H 
Aorist mard

A plural marker follows the TAM suffix 

c-mar-TAM 'I love you' ~ 'You love me.'
c-mar-TAM-PL 'We love him.' ~ 'He loves us.'

[Omzinesý]

A lang with 6 genders. Each is marked with a suffix that consist of a syllabic resonant m n ŋ r lʲ lˠ. Words like matl, labn etc. Interesting aesthetics.

[Omzinesý]

p t t͡ʃ k q (ʔ)
b d d͡ʒ
ɓ ɗ ɗ͡ʒ
s ʃ x~χ
z
m n
l r
ʋ j

i ɨ u
ä
- vowels can be short or long
- consonants can be sporadically geminated

Four open word classes: verbs (something agglutinative), nouns, adjectives (very much nounlike), and local adverbs.

Nouns
- generic form is the unmarked one
"mul" '(is a) stone'

- indefinite article can be added
"sa mul" 'a stone'

- definite forms get a vocalic suffix. There could be something genderlike in them.
"mula" 'the stone'

- The definite form also has plural.
"mulu" 'the stones'

- Definite nouns can have an ergative suffix.
"mulaʔ" '(by) the stone', "muluʔ" '(by) the stones'

- Personal suffixes can be added to definite nouns to code possessor.
"mulai" 'my stone'
"mulasa" 'your stone'
"mulan" 'his/her/its stone'
...

- In the first and second persons, the same pronominal suffixes can be added to code the copular subject.
"muli" 'I'm of/a stone.'
"mulsa" 'You are of/a stone.'
"mul" 'is of/a stone'
...

- A reduplicative past prefix can also be added. (Yes, much like Greek/Sanskrit, though this is nouns.)
"mumuli" 'I was of/a stone.'
"mumulsa" 'You were of/a stone.'
"mumul" 'was of/ a stone'
...

- All static predicates are nouns/adjectives.

- Locational adverbs inflect like nouns.
"vaak" 'in room'
"sa vaak" 'in a room'
"vaaka" 'in the room'
"vaaku" 'in the rooms'
"vaaki" 'I am in (a) room.'

- Suffix -t is neede to make it a noun.
"vaaxt' 'room'
"vaaxtu" 'the rooms'

- I'm considering if adjectives (which are also static predicates) should be like locational adverbs. They weren't very far from German. The syffixes that make them more nounlike could actually agree gender.
"xooq" 'bigly / is in big(ness)' Germ. 'groß / ist groß'
"sa xooxt vaaxt" 'a big room' Germ. 'ein großes Zimmer'

[Omzinesý]

The vowel inventory of Proto-Uralic is surprisingly close to English.
It could be a fun project to make a future English that is like Proto-Uralic.

[Omzinesý]

Four open word classes: verbs (something agglutinative), nouns, adjectives (very much nounlike), and local adverbs.

Nouns
- generic form is the unmarked one
"mul" '(is a) stone'

- indefinite article can be added
"sa mul" 'a stone'

- definite forms get a vocalic suffix. There could be something genderlike in them.
"mula" 'the stone'

- The definite form also has plural.
"mulu" 'the stones'

- Definite nouns can have an ergative suffix.
"mulaʔ" '(by) the stone', "muluʔ" '(by) the stones'

- Personal suffixes can be added to definite nouns to code possessor.
"mulai" 'my stone'
"mulasa" 'your stone'
"mulan" 'his/her/its stone'
...

- In the first and second persons, the same pronominal suffixes can be added to code the copular subject.
"muli" 'I'm of/a stone.'
"mulsa" 'You are of/a stone.'
"mul" 'is of/a stone'
...

- A reduplicative past prefix can also be added. (Yes, much like Greek/Sanskrit, though this is nouns.)
"mumuli" 'I was of/a stone.'
"mumulsa" 'You were of/a stone.'
"mumul" 'was of/ a stone'
...

- All static predicates are nouns/adjectives.

- Locational adverbs inflect like nouns.
"vaak" 'in room'
"sa vaak" 'in a room'
"vaaka" 'in the room'
"vaaku" 'in the rooms'
"vaaki" 'I am in (a) room.'

- Suffix -t is neede to make it a noun.
"vaaxt' 'room'
"vaaxtu" 'the rooms'

- I'm considering if adjectives (which are also static predicates) should be like locational adverbs. They weren't very far from German. The syffixes that make them more nounlike could actually agree gender.
"xooq" 'bigly / is in big(ness)' Germ. 'groß / ist groß'
"sa xooxt vaaxt" 'a big room' Germ. 'ein großes Zimmer'

I could add this phonology

Something with Germanic style

i: u: <i u>
ɪ ʊ <i u>
e: o: <e o>
ɛ ɔ <e o>
æ: ä ɒ: <a a å>

p t tˠ k (ʔ) <p t tg k q>
b d dˠ g <b d dg g>
f θ θˠ x <f þ þg x>
m n nˠ <m n ng>
l lˠ <l lg>
rˠ <r>
s sˠ <s sg>
j <j>

Voiced stops and voiceless spirants merge, when non-final, and become voiced spirants.

Stressed long vowels are followed by one consonant at most.
Stressed short vowels are followed by a geminate or two consonants at least.

maþþ [mäθ:]
mad [mæ:ð]

Because [ð:] is impossible <dd> can be reused.

madd [mät:]
matt [mäʔt]
mat [mæ:t]

[Omzinesý]

A note to self

A lang with topic drop and zero copula could make a distinction between nominative and partitive predicates.

lobut-Ø
fun-NOM
'He (or any dropped topic) is fun.'

lobut-s
happy-PARTVE
'It is fun (there).'

[Omzinesý]

p t t͡ʃ k q (ʔ)
b d d͡ʒ
ɓ ɗ ɗ͡ʒ
s ʃ x~χ
z
m n
l r
ʋ j

i ɨ u
ä
- vowels can be short or long
- consonants can be sporadically geminated

Four open word classes: verbs (something agglutinative), nouns, adjectives (very much nounlike), and local adverbs.

Nouns
- generic form is the unmarked one
"mul" '(is a) stone'

- indefinite article can be added
"sa mul" 'a stone'

- definite forms get a vocalic suffix. There could be something genderlike in them.
"mula" 'the stone'

- The definite form also has plural.
"mulu" 'the stones'

- Definite nouns can have an ergative suffix.
"mulaʔ" '(by) the stone', "muluʔ" '(by) the stones'

- Personal suffixes can be added to definite nouns to code possessor.
"mulai" 'my stone'
"mulasa" 'your stone'
"mulan" 'his/her/its stone'
...

- In the first and second persons, the same pronominal suffixes can be added to code the copular subject.
"muli" 'I'm of/a stone.'
"mulsa" 'You are of/a stone.'
"mul" 'is of/a stone'
...

- A reduplicative past prefix can also be added. (Yes, much like Greek/Sanskrit, though this is nouns.)
"mumuli" 'I was of/a stone.'
"mumulsa" 'You were of/a stone.'
"mumul" 'was of/ a stone'
...

- All static predicates are nouns/adjectives.

- Locational adverbs inflect like nouns.
"vaak" 'in room'
"sa vaak" 'in a room'
"vaaka" 'in the room'
"vaaku" 'in the rooms'
"vaaki" 'I am in (a) room.'

- Suffix -t is neede to make it a noun.
"vaaxt' 'room'
"vaaxtu" 'the rooms'

- I'm considering if adjectives (which are also static predicates) should be like locational adverbs. They weren't very far from German. The syffixes that make them more nounlike could actually agree gender.
"xooq" 'bigly / is in big(ness)' Germ. 'groß / ist groß'
"sa xooxt vaaxt" 'a big room' Germ. 'ein großes Zimmer'

Verbs could have an evidential suffix

tmel-a-j
write-DIR-SG1
'I write'

tmel-gu-j
write-INFER-SG1
'I must be writing.'

tmel-il-i
write-REP-SG1
'They say I'm writing.'

Questions could lack evidentials.

tmel-no-j
write-Q-SG1
'Am I writing.'

Subordinate clauses usually lack evidentials.

he tmel-i
COMPL write-DG1
'... that I'm writing'

That is also the imperative form.

tmel
'Write!'

Nouns and adjectives can have person agreement, but no evidentiality.

hoos-i
happy-SG1
'I'm happy'

If evidentiality is neeeded, a copula verb is used.

hoos abb-gu-j
happy COP-INFER-SG1
'I must be happy.'

Edit: reec 'in house'
teer 'man'
dal 'woman'

jreec 'in cottage'
ceer 'boy'
jal 'girl'

Suffix nominalizing adverbs: -an (word-finally) -en (elsewhere).

reecan 'house'
reejena 'the house'

[Omzinesý]

I realized that verbs can be ambitransitive (like to open) without agreement and still preserve pro-drop if word order is strict.

Gaare modda
door.DEF open
'The door opened.'

Modda gaare.
open door.DEF
'S/he opened the door.'

[Omzinesý]

p t t͡ʃ k q (ʔ)
b d d͡ʒ
ɓ ɗ ɗ͡ʒ
s ʃ x~χ
z
m n
l r
ʋ j

i ɨ u
ä
- vowels can be short or long
- consonants can be sporadically geminated

Revised a bit

t t͡ʃ k
b d d͡ʒ
ɓ ɗ ɗ͡ʒ
f s ʃ (voiced [v z ʒ] when non-intial)
m n (ɲ)
l r
j ɰ w

i ɨ u <i gi u>
ə <e>
ä <a>

Vowels can be short or long. Stressed long vowels can have two alternative tones (flat ~ slightly lowering and rising). (A syllable ending in a nasal or liquid could also count as long.)
Longer words can have another accented syllable.

Nasals and liquids can geminate. Other consonants cannot or do that very rarely.

/ɲ/ is rare and can be analysed as /j/ + /n/ (-j 'sg1', -n 'pl' -> ɲ 'pl1.incl), but phonotactics handles it as one consonant.

Syllable structure ORVCS.

O - obstruent
R - resonant
V - vowel
C - non-sibilant consonant
S - sibilant

ʃnə:ma could be the name of the language.

[Omzinesý]

Notes for myself

- a vertical vowel system with ATR distinction
- a triconsonantal morphology with one-vowel instrumental affixes

[Omzinesý]

I could make a new version of this project viewtopic.php?t=7572 making it West-Romance rather than South-Romance.

It has two cases, Nominative and Obloque (Everythig-else-case).

SG.NOM /amixos/
SG.OBL /amixo/
PL /amixi/

Nominative has the -s only if the word is animate.

I have somewhat fallen in love with modern Greek. That's basically why the language cannot be South-Romance. I want the theme vowel be o.

/ɛ/ could diphthongize in stressed syllables, as in Spanish, to /ie/ but then go on to /i/. The old /i/ could be lowered to /ɪ/. This yields a Ukrainian-style vowel inventory.

i u
ɪ
e o
ä

Consonants could stay more or less as they are in my South-Romance lang.
- Voiced stops fricativeze, and then word-initially devoice.
- Voiceless stops fricativeze intervocally.

If this is a West-Romance lang, it should make velar stops affricates. The changes could be
k => ts / _V[front]
g => dz => z / _V[front]

[Omzinesý]

Case system for a lang.

Kanta 'house'

ABS kanta
ERG-ABL kanta-r
LOC kanta-sa
ESS kanta-n
ASS kanta-ri

I'm boldly copying the idea of prefixal-reduplication as a plural marker from Davush's Tsayyākan.


Kanta 'house'

ABS kanta-nda
ERG-ABL kanta-nda-r
LOC kanta-nda-sa
ESS kanta-nda-n
ASS kanta-nda-ri

Possessor suffixes

kanta-l 'his/her/their house'

ABS kanta-l
ERG-ABL kanta-l
LOC kanta-sa-l
ESS kanta-ne-l
ASS kanta-ri-l


Consonant-final stems

ABS selon 'village'
ERG sellor
LOC selontsa
ESS selonne
ASS selonni

Plural
selon-on 'villages'

[Omzinesý]

I wanna make a lang with the stress on the second syllable. According to WALS 16 languages of 220 have it.

South America: Mapudungun, Aroana
Nirth America: Stoney, Dakota, Paiute (Southern), Pomo (Eastern)
Europe: Basque (Bidasoa Valley), Basque (Oñati)
New Guinea: Tolai, Siroi
Australia: Arrernte (Western), Alyawarra, Mbabaran, Lamu-Lamu, Thayban, Uradhi

The next task will be to check how the secondary stress affects the language.

[Omzinesý]

I'm 4974 days old.
I have sent 0.82 messages per day, 4092 messages, including this one.
How many days I have to send two messages per day to have send one message per day on average?

882 days! Quite much conlanging.

[Arayaz]

I wanna make a lang with the stress on the second syllable. According to WALS 16 languages of 220 have it.

South America: Mapudungun, Aroana
Nirth America: Stoney, Dakota, Paiute (Southern), Pomo (Eastern)
Europe: Basque (Bidasoa Valley), Basque (Oñati)
New Guinea: Tolai, Siroi
Australia: Arrernte (Western), Alyawarra, Mbabaran, Lamu-Lamu, Thayban, Uradhi

The next task will be to check how the secondary stress affects the language.

Arrernte (and possibly others of the Australian ones) may have secondary stress only because of its VCC syllable structure (i.e. it might have previously had initial stress, but then all consonant-initial words got unstressed vowels added to the beginning). Though I suppose if that were true, words that always began with vowels would have initial stress.