If natlangs were conlangs

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
Arayaz
roman
roman
Posts: 1283
Joined: 07 Sep 2022 00:24
Location: Just south of the pin-pen merger
Contact:

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Arayaz »

Visions1 wrote: 06 Aug 2023 21:40 Latin: Oh, suuuuuuuuuuure, you're going to make an analytic language with free word order and cases. How lovely. How original. How exotic and challenging.
Not.
I think the reason this is a trope is that all the new conlangers copied Latin. It's like Esperanto.
Visions1 wrote: 06 Aug 2023 21:40 Inuktitut: Why do you sound like a more fluid version of Klingon. And also *turning away from the language to the speaker*, I thinks it's cheating if you just tack on affixes like that. It's too simple! I mean, since when was a language supposed to be easy for kids to learn, anyways?
No, no, you see, it's so that every English speaker who takes an interest in our language has to DIE A MILLION DEATHS before they remember the order the affixes come in!
Visions1 wrote: 06 Aug 2023 21:40 Pirahã: WHY
[+1]
Proud member of the myopic-trans-southerner-Viossa-girl-with-two-cats-who-joined-on-September-6th-2022 gang

:con: Ruykkarraber languages, Izre, Ngama, Areyaxi languages, ???, Makihip, 2c2ef0
my garbage

she/her
Visions1
greek
greek
Posts: 495
Joined: 27 Jul 2021 08:05

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Visions1 »

Üdj wrote: 06 Aug 2023 23:44 I think the reason this is a trope is that all the new conlangers copied Latin. It's like Esperanto.
I believe there are some deeper reasons why that is.
Latin is 1) familiar to everyone indirectly, since so many languages borrow/are descended from it; 2) the grammar is actually really easy to work with. Nothing complicated, just tack on some markers and you're good. It's a crazy easy style to implement - you could create the grammar in basically a single day; 3) a lot of people end up learning classical languages anyways (Hebrew and Greek also being examples of this in their own ways), making these systems familiar to many. People tend to conlang through the lense of whatever languages they currently know.
Visions1
greek
greek
Posts: 495
Joined: 27 Jul 2021 08:05

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Visions1 »

Wait, you speak Inuktitut?
User avatar
Arayaz
roman
roman
Posts: 1283
Joined: 07 Sep 2022 00:24
Location: Just south of the pin-pen merger
Contact:

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Arayaz »

Visions1 wrote: 07 Aug 2023 07:44 Wait, you speak Inuktitut?
I wish. But no, I haven't found any resources from it, and I'm losing enough hair over Irish at the moment, thanks.

Whoever designed it was inspired by Biblaridion's language where verbs have non-concatenative morphology, and decided, "oh, I wanna make a language where EVERY NOUN HAS SOME RANDOM IRREGULAR GENITIVE FORM!!! YAYYYYYYYY!"
Proud member of the myopic-trans-southerner-Viossa-girl-with-two-cats-who-joined-on-September-6th-2022 gang

:con: Ruykkarraber languages, Izre, Ngama, Areyaxi languages, ???, Makihip, 2c2ef0
my garbage

she/her
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3044
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Salmoneus »

Told you so.

But the genitive singulars aren't that bad - there's only 5 declensions, after all. But the plurals... the 1st declension, for instance, has only one way of forming the genitive singular, but NINE ways of forming a plural. And then the genitive plural is usually the same as the nominative singular, but then sometimes it'll be the same as the nominative plural instead (the nominative plural is in turn usually the same as the genitive singular, except if its' the same as the genitive plural instead).
User avatar
Arayaz
roman
roman
Posts: 1283
Joined: 07 Sep 2022 00:24
Location: Just south of the pin-pen merger
Contact:

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Arayaz »

Salmoneus wrote: 18 Aug 2023 22:42 Told you so.
Indeed you did. And thank you for the warning.
Your post also inspired me to learn at least the basics of German.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Aug 2023 22:42 But the genitive singulars aren't that bad - there's only 5 declensions, after all. But the plurals... the 1st declension, for instance, has only one way of forming the genitive singular, but NINE ways of forming a plural. And then the genitive plural is usually the same as the nominative singular, but then sometimes it'll be the same as the nominative plural instead (the nominative plural is in turn usually the same as the genitive singular, except if its' the same as the genitive plural instead).
And the vocative plural.

I think the quintessential case systems are nom/acc/dat/gen (German), nom/acc/dat/gen/loc/abl/all (Dothraki), and nom/acc/dat/gen/abl/voc (Latin).

Irish is nom/gen/voc, which is a very odd set.
Proud member of the myopic-trans-southerner-Viossa-girl-with-two-cats-who-joined-on-September-6th-2022 gang

:con: Ruykkarraber languages, Izre, Ngama, Areyaxi languages, ???, Makihip, 2c2ef0
my garbage

she/her
Visions1
greek
greek
Posts: 495
Joined: 27 Jul 2021 08:05

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Visions1 »

Kusunda: Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they found another speaker.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found three more speakers.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found another speaker.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found two more speakers.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found two more speakers.
(You really can't let go, huh?)

(This reminds me of an old comedy-piece where they made a fake newspaper in 100 years: "100 years later: Yiddish still dying.")

Southern Yiddish: ...I have not seen horrors like this since the Great English Vowel Shift...
...what... monster... are you...

Tedim: So you're telling me your protolang didn't have a /g/, and you just, made one up using /r/ -> /ɣ/ -> /g/.
That makes no sense! I've never seen a language do that before!
*Meanwhile, in my head*
(Stupid Visions! Why didn't I think of that! Ugh!)
User avatar
Informer
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Feb 2024 01:56
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Informer »

Egerius wrote: 24 Dec 2016 07:53 English revisitedorthography:
Then others took over and only tweaked unnecessary details! What even...?
Even then the graphemes they did remove just made it all worse!
In case you haven't realized, I have no clue what I'm doing.
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1309
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Man in Space »

Visions1 wrote: 13 Feb 2024 10:23Stupid Visions!
Gazed into the visions of the night…
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 641
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10
Location: Northern California

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

Visions1 wrote: 13 Feb 2024 10:23 Kusunda: Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they found another speaker.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found three more speakers.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found another speaker.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found two more speakers.
5 years later:
Bad news guys! Kusunda just went extinct!
Oh wait, they just found two more speakers.
(You really can't let go, huh?)

(This reminds me of an old comedy-piece where they made a fake newspaper in 100 years: "100 years later: Yiddish still dying.")

Southern Yiddish: ...I have not seen horrors like this since the Great English Vowel Shift...
...what... monster... are you...

Tedim: So you're telling me your protolang didn't have a /g/, and you just, made one up using /r/ -> /ɣ/ -> /g/.
That makes no sense! I've never seen a language do that before!
*Meanwhile, in my head*
(Stupid Visions! Why didn't I think of that! Ugh!)
Fascinating. I'd never heard of Kusunda until today, and I thought I was up-to-date on my language isolates. I guess it's time to dive deep into this "language that's died 1000 deaths".
Image
Visions1
greek
greek
Posts: 495
Joined: 27 Jul 2021 08:05

Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Visions1 »

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 22 Feb 2024 19:24 Fascinating. I'd never heard of Kusunda until today, and I thought I was up-to-date on my language isolates. I guess it's time to dive deep into this "language that's died 1000 deaths".
Truthfully, I just think it was that the data was faulty for a while. Nepal isn't exactly easy terrain.
Post Reply