The Sixth Conversation Thread

[Khemehekis]

And then there are so many times I've heard people describe themselves as "weird" or "weirdos", but it turned out that what they really meant is that they're obsessively interested in something; they don't know how to make conversation; they're shy/plagued by social anxiety so they can't talk to cute girls/boys or order food at a restaurant; either they're quiet or they'll talk for four hours straight about superheroes or computers or Pokémon; they'd rather be alone reading than go to a party; they like comic books and World of Warcraft and Dungeons & Dragons and stuff like that; they like Star Wars and Harry Potter and superhero films (which are actually the most popular movies/franchises around right now, so how is that weird?), they can't handle loud noise; they can't handle crowds; they don't have any friends or perhaps don't even know how to make friends; they love rules and are huge rule-followers; they don't like unpredictability or changes in routine; they dress for comfort instead of style and don't attempt to look hip; they don't get emotional about people dying (wherefor other people tell them they're psychopaths) . . . Face it, there are literally TENS OF MILLIONS of people all around the world who are like that.

That's me to a T. I hate loud events with lots of people. I LOVE having exact instructions, bright lines, clear lists of do's and don'ts. One of my motivations for my project was that it gave me a world and characters that I could understand and clear systems I could grasp, as so much of the real world, especially other humans, is just a black box to me. I zig-zag on the lack of grief, though. Balled my eyes out when my first guide dog died, and the fear of eventually losing my second was part of why I made the yinrih canine and long-lived.

Pascal is pretty much the "neurodivergent" parts of my personality standing on four legs.

Wow, I didn't know all that about you! There are zillions of people like this online, though, so it's not surprising. I'd say that this personality profile is so common (it's essentially the description of Asperger's, or of the nerd, which is the popularized recognition of Asperger's traits), that I would argue it shouldn't be called "weird".

I'm not a loves-rules type. My nature is that I don't like oppressive and repressive social rules (like "Take your hat off inside a building" or "Don't go naked in public" or "Guys can't wear their hair long"). It's why I chose "Khemehekis" as my screenname (khemehekis is the Kankonian word for "counterculturalist", a Shaleyan borrowing -- the khemehekas were the Kankonians who fought the social-norm-bound devesas (s. devesis) during the Culture Wars era).

I'm sorry for the loss of your guide dog. I know how grief feels after losing my partner in writing The Bittersweet Generation, a boy named John Hensle, and after losing Jolene, one of my best friends (the woman I told you about who would say, "Tacos are my favorite"). When elderly relatives passed away, I didn't cry, but I was inconsolable after Jolene passed away; she was only 64. And John was only 23!

I always thought Pascal was essentially the yinrih embodiment of the Nerd archetype (and, as I asked about, he'd be called the Commonthroat word for nerd).

Introverted White male able-bodied Aspies are plentiful on Internet sites like this and the ZBB, but I don't think I've ever met a blind ADHDer on the Internet before (nor IRL, as far as I know). I'm so happy to I got to meet you -- and to be able to bond with you over our love of conworlding/conlanging and get to know your monkey-foxes! I haven't seen such expert and multifaceted xenobiology since Denis Moskowitz created the Rikchiks! And for someone who has so much difficulty seeing the things he's designing, you understand engineering and ergonomics far better than I do. (My weakness is visual thinking and understanding physics and spatial relationships.)

Oh I'm not an expert on pretty much anything, except maybe computer networking, and the fact I've failed the ENARSI five times and am working on my sixth should tell you about how well I have that together. I will pass some day, if only by shear attrition and dumb luck. I've flushed more money than this down the toilet on stupider things.

What draws me to xenoergonomics is that it mirrors my experience with technology (in the broad sense of human-designed objects and environments) that was not made with me in mind. A genuinely powerful lesson that I've learned from this project is that disability is almost more about the environment a person finds themselves in. I bet there were plenty of dyslexic vikings who were perfectly able-bodied in the world they found themselves in. A human without a tail is at no disadvantage whatsoever, but a yinrih without a tail is genuinely crippled because they live in world designed for people with tails. Similarly, a human at Focus has to live in a world made by and for arboreal quadrupeds, and yinrih living on Earth have to be in a world designed by and for tailless bipedal persistence hunters. In both cases it can be argued that the visitors are 'disabled' because they find themselves in an environment not designed for them.

Excellent point about the dyslexic Vikings! Now I see how your experiences influenced the xenoergonomics you worked out. It all makes so much sense.

I've created post-conventional peoples in the Lehola Galaxy, but one particular appeal of conworlding and conlanging is that when I create a conlang, I have a tabula rasa language that won't contain any words that bother me (watch this video of mine to understand what I'm talking about), and I can talk or listen freely; the effect is similar to listening to music in a foreign language. Or a paraplegic person swimming.

Also, I like really thinking about what it would be like in their nonexistent shoes. One of the other things I was talking about on the Discord server was a pet peeve of mine about animal characters with hats that expose their ears. Ears are comparatively thin and fragile, and the raison d'etre of a hat is to protect the wearer from rain, sun, cold, or blunt force. would I want to wear a hat that did literally none of those things for the most fragile and sticky-outy parts of my head? Of course not! Thus powered armor helmets have ear guards to protect against physical damage, and healer's cloaks completely wrap around the ears to protect against sun burn. Crystal's baseball hat in Table Manners is a modified human hat, or more likely a piece of repurposed pet clothing, so ear holes are expected.

I've never thought about it before, but you're right -- it's crazy that anthropomorphs wear hats but don't have their ears covered! I mean, think of what rabbit hats or elephant hats would have to be like; you can't just copy human hats.

You know about the ink-claws of yinrih being covered or not covered in various ways? In Kebsabhaz (my hateworld), a country on Chedam (a planet populated by pachams, sapients with claws on their hands and feet), garaqs (shoes common across Chedam, with open space on top and holes for claws) are sometimes worn, but they're considered too informal for business situations, because Kebsabhazians in the corporate workplace insist on everyone looking professional, and instead people dressing up must wear pukhaches (shoes with thimble-like projections that cover the toes). Kebsabhazians don't normally wear gloves in public, though. This covering-the-claws thing is something I never think about when working with my human-populated planets!

[lurker]

I've never thought about it before, but you're right -- it's crazy that anthropomorphs wear hats but don't have their ears covered! I mean, think of what rabbit hats or elephant hats would have to be like; you can't just copy human hats.

You can find any number of pictures of cats wearing big over the ear headphones, but they're just pressed against the sides of the cat's head. How is he going to hear anything when his ears are on top, completely uncovered? While I'm not sure if yinrih have can-style headphones, they do have earphones, but they look like airpods, and instead of hanging off the ear they wrap around the pinna (outer visible part of the ear) to stay in place.

If it sounds like I'm obsessed with these little details, its because it mirrors my struggles with accessibility. Nothing is made for me, and the stuff that is is stupidly expensive.

I always thought Pascal was essentially the yinrih embodiment of the Nerd archetype (and, as I asked about, he'd be called the Commonthroat word for nerd).

The missionaries are mostly different aspects of my personality or reflections of my interests or areas of knowledge. Stormlight is just my job as a character. Lodestar is my ideal conception of an older sibling. Tod is how I picture an ideal friend--there when you need him, etc. Iris is my "rules lawyer" side, Sunshine is the one that just wants to be necessary and is constantly obsessing over some topic or another (humans in her case).

That bit about Pascal running out in the rain to look for a neighbor's pet is also autobiographical. It was a rough collie, and the rain was so hard I could barely see, I mean even less than usual. Looking back I don't know what on earth I could have done. The whole time I was thinking about how sad and worried I was when my own dog got loose, which was a common occurrence as she was quite the escape artist.

[Khemehekis]

I've never thought about it before, but you're right -- it's crazy that anthropomorphs wear hats but don't have their ears covered! I mean, think of what rabbit hats or elephant hats would have to be like; you can't just copy human hats.

You can find any number of pictures of cats wearing big over the ear headphones, but they're just pressed against the sides of the cat's head. How is he going to hear anything when his ears are on top, completely uncovered? While I'm not sure if yinrih have can-style headphones, they do have earphones, but they look like airpods, and instead of hanging off the ear they wrap around the pinna (outer visible part of the ear) to stay in place.

You mean like lolcal pictures? I'm not sure if I've seen one of those headphone pictures, but it just seems dumb.

I can't wear any earbuds nor earplugs because my ears are misshapen on the inside, so they'll just keep falling out. I sympathize.

If it sounds like I'm obsessed with these little details, its because it mirrors my struggles with accessibility. Nothing is made for me, and the stuff that is is stupidly expensive.

It doesn't sound as if you're obsessed with stupid little details; I completely agree with you over animal hats and cat headphones. It just shows you're a critical thinker. I think conlangers can relate to it, because conlangers will see a video with Rodd Flanders landing in his spacecraft on an alien planet, where the green cyclops swamp-aliens ask him, "What are your hobbies?", and think, "Wait -- how the hell do a random planet of aliens know English?"

I always thought Pascal was essentially the yinrih embodiment of the Nerd archetype (and, as I asked about, he'd be called the Commonthroat word for nerd).

The missionaries are mostly different aspects of my personality or reflections of my interests or areas of knowledge. Stormlight is just my job as a character. Lodestar is my ideal conception of an older sibling. Tod is how I picture an ideal friend--there when you need him, etc. Iris is my "rules lawyer" side, Sunshine is the one that just wants to be necessary and is constantly obsessing over some topic or another (humans in her case).

That bit about Pascal running out in the rain to look for a neighbor's pet is also autobiographical. It was a rough collie, and the rain was so hard I could barely see, I mean even less than usual. Looking back I don't know what on earth I could have done. The whole time I was thinking about how sad and worried I was when my own dog got loose, which was a common occurrence as she was quite the escape artist.

Thanks for sharing; I didn't know they were all different facets of YOU!

Many of the characters in my rock musical The Bittersweet Generation are some facet of me, or at least have some characteristics borrowed from me. Alan is the one most directly based on me (he's a bisexual Jewish male, and I gave him bipolar disorder so he'd still be neurodivergent, but his disorder would be more familiar and comprehensible to the audience than mine). Alan is an aspiring rock star who wears turtlenecks, sunglasses, and long hair. He has long brown hair, hazel eyes, and freckles, and insists that the world hear his music. His behavior is also bizarre because of his bipolar disorder, and he loves youth culture and rejects "mainstream American adult culture" (like the suggestion that he become an accountant because he got a 780 on his Math SAT, which was actually my real Math SAT score). Paul desires the freedom to break social conventions and wants acceptance, but at the same time is scarred and tears up when adults tell him his behavior is "inappropriate". Bryce is anosmic like me. Sarah struggles with strong parental expectations during high school that she ultimately finds herself unable to fulfill. Melanie self-harms.

[VaptuantaDoi]

Google Translate has recently added a very large number of languages, some of the more interesting including

- Abkhaz
- Aymara
- Baoulé
- Dhivehi
- Friulian
- Jingpo
- Kalaallisut
- Mam
- Meadow Mari
- Nahuatl
- NKo
- Q'eqchi'
- Tok Pisin
- Twi
- Venetian

They mostly seem to have added a bunch of Indian and African languages which is good; plus there's a ton of juicy minority Romance languages. I can't vouch for the quality of any of these, but it's a valiant effort by any count. I tried translating a text through all of them to see how distorted it got (it really did not like doing this):

The man was the father of six children. He, a longqeuwo hunter, was almost fourty-six years old and was preparing to take part in the coming-of-age ceremony for the last time. After all, his youngest turned sixteen the week before, and it was the season of freezing. His son would become a longqeuwo like him and would become a proud adult, hopefully of the Lontreut clan. The father, known locally as “L’Éffeuilletté”, had prepared the mushroom tea (shaman’s tea) and the cannabis pipe for his son, after which the ceremony began at eight o’clock. Unfortunately, the son ate a poisonous fruit and died after being sent into nature alone for fifteen days. It’s been twenty-four years since I found my dear child’s corpse and sent off his spirit, but I still hate myself for having failed him. Don’t repeat my mistakes, my child, and teach them better than I have you.

Three years ago, Jamie's father was diagnosed with cancer and, 15 years later, anil cancer killed Jamie.

It did manage to preserve the idea of a father and a son, and the son dying, and some preiod of years involved, so not too bad. I'd hate to think how a text would survive a translation relay with 250 conlangs.

I remember doing this a few years ago (with a different text of course) when they had a lot fewer languages, and I just ended up with "the racoon flew away".

[Visions1]

I'm seconding Khem here. I very strongly believe that anything anyone writes is just a reflection of themselves (hence why I avoid posting too much about myself). Sort of how I figured out stuff about all you guys.
Though, I did not expect both your characters to be so closely you.

---

I tried the Aymara one once. The translations for it weren't really so good. But I imagine that now, it's good enough to actually get used, though to what degree I don't know. Seems a lot better.

Also, I'm really glad they added what they did. Aside from the much needed Cantonese, the African languages were badly needed. It's like if a language doesn't get used on the stock exchange, it doesn't exist. "Oh Wolof, yeah, this cute little language spoken by those cute starving kids in Africa that do the dancing," - note the subtle forgetfulness that Africa is like three times larger than Europe - " yeah, I wonder how many people speak it... SEVEN MILLION?! Well, that isn't really a lot." Then when they list European languages and someone forgets Romanian he's the first correct them, despite it being spoken by only six million people.
Plus, y'know, supporting struggling languages is kind.

[VaptuantaDoi]

Also, I'm really glad they added what they did. Aside from the much needed Cantonese, the African languages were badly needed. It's like if a language doesn't get used on the stock exchange, it doesn't exist. "Oh Wolof, yeah, this cute little language spoken by those cute starving kids in Africa that do the dancing," - note the subtle forgetfulness that Africa is like three times larger than Europe - " yeah, I wonder how many people speak it... SEVEN MILLION?! Well, that isn't really a lot." Then when they list European languages and someone forgets Romanian he's the first correct them, despite it being spoken by only six million people.
Plus, y'know, supporting struggling languages is kind.

Apparently they want to make translation available for the 1,000 most spoken languages. That's an admirable goal, but the corpus for languages like Davawenyo or Ekari or Matumbi is like nothing so idk how they're planning to do that.

I would like to see some Australian languages on there. But then like Warlpiri has 3,000 speakers and that's the best we've got.

[Creyeditor]

There is actually lots of stuff online by native Ekari (aka Mee) speakers (compared to smaller Papuan languages) but it's mostly songs and then mostly church songs and lots if it is youtube videos. Stories are considered more of a serious bussiness and not a lot of them are written down or recorded. So the corpus exists but it's not the kind of corpus that would be needed.

[Khemehekis]

I'm seconding Khem here. I very strongly believe that anything anyone writes is just a reflection of themselves (hence why I avoid posting too much about myself). Sort of how I figured out stuff about all you guys.
Though, I did not expect both your characters to be so closely you.

Question: Have you read The Bittersweet Generation?

[Visions1]

No. I haven't heard of it.

[Khemehekis]

No. I haven't heard of it.

The Bittersweet Generation is my rock musical, which I've mentioned a number of times on the board. When you said, "I did not expect both your characters to be so closely you", I thought you may have been referring to the characters from The Bittersweet Generation. Or were you referring to Lurker and someone else's characters, instead of Lurker and me?

[Visions1]

Both you and Lurker. But I can be pretty dumb putting two and two together, hence why I said that - I wouldn't have seen the resemblances as well.

Do you have a link?

[Khemehekis]

Do you have a link?

https://khemehekis.angelfire.com/bittersweetgen.pdf

[lurker]

Well, I have another attempt at that ENARSI exam. today. This will be my sixth attempt at what I've started thinking of as the world's most expensive speedrun. I keep trying to find new strats to shave seconds off my time lol, and I have double time thanks to ADA accommodations, but even so, I still usually finish with minutes to spare.

I wish I could say I get better each time, but the scores have been all over the place. They don't give you a total score, but break it down based on the topic. I've tried to guess at my total score based on the weights they give to each topic, and haven't been doing well. You need 825 points out of 1000 to pass, and I haven't gotten above a 650.

The big problem for me are what I call "haystack questions". Most questions are multiple choice, and some require more than selection. In most cases, each choice consists of four or five lines of code that you would need to enter to solve a particular problem. Inevitably I can narrow it down to two choices that look identical, and have to go through line by line, character by character, searching for which one has a dash between two words instead of a space, a 1 in an IP address instead of an 11, or a lowercase o instead of a 0. No, I am not kidding, those are actual examples from the exam. That's four or five choices, each with four or five lines of config commands.

These questions also come with visual aids that usually consist of a simple network topology diagram, along with screenshots of relevant log or debug output or sections of the running config. These snippets will be in textboxes scattered around the image, not necessarily next to the network node they apply to, are often blurry screenshots, and often have wrapped text that makes it hard to parse.

The interactive labs don't allow you to paste commands into the terminal, a vital strategy when many nodes have similar or identical configs and you want to avoid mistyping.

In short, I don't think the test accurately represents a real world troubleshooting scenario. Obviously I don't expect to be given access to the internet even though I would IRL, but these blurry static screenshots and gimped terminal sessions don't reflect the real world.

I fully expect to fail again, but I will consider it a personal success if I can get a personal best score, and will be happy if I just do better than I did two weeks ago.

Edit: Well, another fail. Not only did I fail, but I got the second worst score so far. I think I may need to re-evaluate my career choices...

[lurker]

Just spent a few days addicted to the CBB discord server. Now I remember why I had to leave Reddit and black hole the domain on my firewall.

That little hit of dopamine I get from random strangers acknowledging my existence is too much.

I don't think i have any addictions other than ADHD Still sorry to see you go. Also maybe you should post on the ZBB.

I attempted to sign up there, assuming This is the correct place. Anyway, seems they want some secret code.

[thethief3]

Last time i checked it was questions about conlanging.

[Khemehekis]

Last time i checked it was questions about conlanging.

Yeah, like "Name Tolkien's two most famous conlangs" or "What is the diacritic in 'führer' called?"

[Visions1]

"Das überlaut. We shall purge dem all, all of de inferior diacritics..."
"'Sup."
"Oh, it's you, das United Shtates! I'm your biggesht fan. Not zo cool vat you did to der Indiäner, but big inshpiration."
"Yeah about that..."
"Oh?"
"So your friends from the east who write in only diacritics just bombed us, so uh... yeah. Can't be friends anymore, dude."
"A...and who ahr dose...?"
"The Slavic partisans. And the French partisans. And the Italian partisans. And the Danish partisans."
"Czołem."
"Espèce de raté."
"Ti ricordi di me, amico? Sì, su Il Duce..."
"Åh ja!"
"Oh! And the USSR. Remember that pact you made with them?"
"Приве́т."
"Nein!"
And that's why nobody uses Hebrew characters in Europe anymore. Except in Belgium. Do I get an A, miss?

[lurker]

Last time i checked it was questions about conlanging.

I even looked over the FAQ and ToS thinking this was one of those "read all the instructions before starting" things.

[VaptuantaDoi]

Last time i checked it was questions about conlanging.

I even looked over the FAQ and ToS thinking this was one of those "read all the instructions before starting" things.

I think you just gotta email the dude

[Creyeditor]

Yes, email him.