(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

[Ahzoh]

First things first: You don't have to adhere to the 3-mora rule exactly. Not even Latin does (it counts —CVC# as one mora instead of two).

I don't think it counts the CVC# as one mora, but just considers the final mora to be extrametrical. So it is still considered bimoraic.

Maybe make the last two more of the superheavy into one mora?
So /ma.a.n-za.an/ as opposed to /ma.a.n-za.a.n/.

I don't think morae work that way. You can consider a mora to be extrametrical, but it is still a separate mora that exists.

It also leads to the same problem: why these when the others are not similarly treated? Final heavies are treated like lights, but are superheavies also treated like lights or are they treated like heavies?

I could say coda consonants are extrametrical across the board, but then CVC syllables no longer count as heavy, messing up my system.

You might hate this, but would epenthetic insertions help with this? Maybe glottal stops (as much as you've been avoiding them).

It wouldn't truly solve the problem, it kind of just shoves it under the rug. It's either epenthesis or shortening the vowel, and both options have their own set of complications.

[Visions1]

Well okay then.

Could you make the spoiler charts, but showing where the stress is on the syllables? Maybe I can figure it out.

I don't think morae work that way. You can consider a mora to be extrametrical, but it is still a separate mora that exists.

Why does this matter?

[Ahzoh]

Well okay then.

Could you make the spoiler charts, but showing where the stress is on the syllables? Maybe I can figure it out.

Spoiler:

ˈmá—za
ˈmá—za•a
ˈmá—za•n
ˈmá—za•a•n or ma—ˈzá•a•n

ˈmá•a—za
ˈmá•a—za•a
ˈmá•a—za•n
ˈmá•a—za•a•n or ˈma•á—za•a•n or ma•a—ˈzá•a•n

ˈmá•n—za
ˈmá•n—za•a
ˈmá•n—za•n
ˈmá•n—za•a•n or ma•n—ˈzá•a•n

ˈma•á•n—za
ˈma•á•n—za•a
ˈma•á•n—za•n
ˈma•á•n—za•a•n or ma•a•n—ˈzá•a•n

Spoiler:

ˈmá—ma—za
ˈmá—ma—za•a
ˈmá—ma—za•n
ˈmá—ma—za•a•n or ma—ma—ˈzá•a•n

ma—ˈmá•a—za
ma—ˈmá•a—za•a
ma—ˈmá•a—za•n
ma—ˈmá•a—za•a•n or ma—ˈma•á—za•a•n or ma—ma•a—ˈzá•a•n

ma—ˈmá•n—za
ma—ˈmá•n—za•a
ma—ˈmá•n—za•n
ma—ˈmá•n—za•a•n or ma—ma•n—ˈzá•a•n

ma—ˈma•á•n—za
ma—ˈma•á•n—za•a
ma—ˈma•á•n—za•n
ma—ˈma•á•n—za•a•n or ma—ˈmá•a•n—za•a•n or ma—ma•a•n—ˈzá•a•n

Spoiler:

ˈma•á—ma—za
ˈma•á—ma—za•a
ˈma•á—ma—za•n
ˈma•á—ma—za•a•n or ma•a—ma—ˈzá•a•n

ma•a—ˈmá•a—za
ma•a—ˈmá•a—za•a
ma•a—ˈmá•a—za•n
ma•a—ˈmá•a—za•a•n or ma•a—ˈma•á—za•a•n or ma•a—ma•a—ˈzá•a•n

ma•a—ˈmá•n—za
ma•a—ˈmá•n—za•a
ma•a—ˈmá•n—za•n
ma•a—ˈmá•n—za•a•n or ma•a—ma•n—ˈzá•a•n

ma•a—ˈma•á•n—za
ma•a—ˈma•á•n—za•a
ma•a—ˈma•á•n—za•n
ma•a—ˈma•á•n—za•a•n or ma•a—ma•a•n—ˈzá•a•n

Spoiler:

ˈma•á•n—ma—za
ˈma•á•n—ma—za•a
ˈma•á•n—ma—za•n
ˈma•á•n—ma—za•a•n or ma•a•n—ma—ˈzá•a•n

So when superheavy syllables are involved, there are at least two to three possibilities for how accent is placed.

I don't think morae work that way. You can consider a mora to be extrametrical, but it is still a separate mora that exists.

Why does this matter?

It matters for how many and what mora can be ignored.

I can say either:
a) only the finalmost mora is extra metrical
b) all final syllables are treated as light, in spite of diachronic history
c) all coda consonants are extrametrical / only vowels are considered with respect to weight and accent
d) all superheavy syllables are simply treated the same as heavy

These options all have their own set of inconsistencies/contradictions

[sangi39]

So, my conlang has both stress accent and pitch accent and it basically follows the so-called the three mora law like Latin and Akkadian. Or close to it.

My conlang's syllable structure allows this very well. However, as a result of glide elision and vowel coalescence, there now exist superheavy syllables which complicate this system.

Generally, I treat the final mora of a word as extrametrical (and thus the accent always falls on a vowel), but I don't know what to do about final superheavy syllables. If normal heavy syllables (CVV and CVC) are treated the same as light syllables, then I don't know if superheavy sylllables should also be treated as light (thus counting two moras as extra-metrical) or as normal heavy (only counting one mora as extra metrical).

This is especially complicated due to the the origins of the superheavy syllables, which by all logic and reason should mean the final superheavy syllable can be stressed if it originates from stressed penult fusing with an unstressed ult).

And of course, there is also superheavy syllables in places other than the final syllables, which would also complicate things.

Perhaps I should just consider the final mora of superheavy syllables to be extra-metrical across the board (though I think that is weird given their origins and also since other syllable types would not be so affected)?

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have other ideas/strategies to employ?

Anyways, I have listed all the possible syllable type combinations that are at least relevant to primary stress (— marks a syllable boundary, • marks a mora boundary) :

Spoiler:

ma—za
ma—za•a
ma—za•n
ma—za•a•n

ma•a—za
ma•a—za•a
ma•a—za•n
ma•a—za•a•n

ma•n—za
ma•n—za•a
ma•n—za•n
ma•n—za•a•n

ma•a•n—za
ma•a•n—za•a
ma•a•n—za•n
ma•a•n—za•a•n

Spoiler:

ma—ma—za
ma—ma—za•a
ma—ma—za•n
ma—ma—za•a•n

ma—ma•a—za
ma—ma•a—za•a
ma—ma•a—za•n
ma—ma•a—za•a•n

ma—ma•n—za
ma—ma•n—za•a
ma—ma•n—za•n
ma—ma•n—za•a•n

ma—ma•a•n—za
ma—ma•a•n—za•a
ma—ma•a•n—za•n
ma—ma•a•n—za•a•n

Spoiler:

ma•a—ma—za
ma•a—ma—za•a
ma•a—ma—za•n
ma•a—ma—za•a•n

ma•a—ma•a—za
ma•a—ma•a—za•a
ma•a—ma•a—za•n
ma•a—ma•a—za•a•n

ma•a—ma•n—za
ma•a—ma•n—za•a
ma•a—ma•n—za•n
ma•a—ma•n—za•a•n

ma•a—ma•a•n—za
ma•a—ma•a•n—za•a
ma•a—ma•a•n—za•n
ma•a—ma•a•n—za•a•n

Spoiler:

ma•a•n—ma—za
ma•a•n—ma—za•a
ma•a•n—ma—za•n
ma•a•n—ma—za•a•n

ma•a•n—ma•a—za
ma•a•n—ma•a—za•a
ma•a•n—ma•a—za•n
ma•a•n—ma•a—za•a•n

ma•a•n—ma•n—za
ma•a•n—ma•n—za•a
ma•a•n—ma•n—za•n
ma•a•n—ma•n—za•a•n

ma•a•n—ma•a•n—za
ma•a•n—ma•a•n—za•a
ma•a•n—ma•a•n—za•n
ma•a•n—ma•a•n—za•a•n

For me personally, it might depend on a) the original of the stress system, i.e. was the three-mora rule there before the development of the superheavy syllables, and b) probably how common they are

If the three-mora rule was there before the development of superheavy syllables, and they're sufficiently common, you could have them affect stress irregularly, by keeping the stress on the mora that originally carried it

If, in creating more and more words (seeing how these changes affect patterns in the morphology, and how often those particular patterns pop up) you happen to spot that one or two effects are more prominent, then you could "regularise" the outputs

So rather than trying to figure out how to handle them based on how they might fit into the current stress rule, play it out with a few words and a few paradigms, see what pops out, and go from there

[Ahzoh]

For me personally, it might depend on a) the original of the stress system, i.e. was the three-mora rule there before the development of the superheavy syllables, and b) probably how common they are

If the three-mora rule was there before the development of superheavy syllables, and they're sufficiently common, you could have them affect stress irregularly, by keeping the stress on the mora that originally carried it

If, in creating more and more words (seeing how these changes affect patterns in the morphology, and how often those particular patterns pop up) you happen to spot that one or two effects are more prominent, then you could "regularise" the outputs

So rather than trying to figure out how to handle them based on how they might fit into the current stress rule, play it out with a few words and a few paradigms, see what pops out, and go from there

It existed before the development of superheavy syllables. The language did not originally have any superheavy syllables and typically does not allow them. Frankly a lot of the issue has to do with what mora to place the tone. The same stressed syllable could be falling or rising depending on how the language determines what mora is considered metrically.

[sangi39]

For me personally, it might depend on a) the original of the stress system, i.e. was the three-mora rule there before the development of the superheavy syllables, and b) probably how common they are

If the three-mora rule was there before the development of superheavy syllables, and they're sufficiently common, you could have them affect stress irregularly, by keeping the stress on the mora that originally carried it

If, in creating more and more words (seeing how these changes affect patterns in the morphology, and how often those particular patterns pop up) you happen to spot that one or two effects are more prominent, then you could "regularise" the outputs

So rather than trying to figure out how to handle them based on how they might fit into the current stress rule, play it out with a few words and a few paradigms, see what pops out, and go from there

It existed before the development of superheavy syllables. The language did not originally have any superheavy syllables and typically does not allow them. Frankly a lot of the issue has to do with what mora to place the tone. The same stressed syllable could be falling or rising depending on how the language determines what mora is considered metrically.

Cool cool Yeah, so what you can do, if you wanted, to give yourself a better idea of how the language "might" behave, is to start with the original forms of words, before the glide elision and the vowel coalescence and all that fun, and then keep the stress where it is as you run the words through those various changes, and see where the stress/tone ends up in the descendent forms. You might find that one or two patterns might just pop out naturally as a result (and if you just want one, just say the most common pattern becomes the sole pattern through analogy), and that's your new "superheavy syllables behave this way in relation to stress/tone" rule. It might fit in with your existing pattern for light and heavy syllables, and that'd be a nice little surprise, or it might end up being an interesting curveball, and who doesn't enjoy those to make a language feel more real?

[Ahzoh]

Cool cool Yeah, so what you can do, if you wanted, to give yourself a better idea of how the language "might" behave, is to start with the original forms of words, before the glide elision and the vowel coalescence and all that fun, and then keep the stress where it is as you run the words through those various changes, and see where the stress/tone ends up in the descendent forms. You might find that one or two patterns might just pop out naturally as a result (and if you just want one, just say the most common pattern becomes the sole pattern through analogy), and that's your new "superheavy syllables behave this way in relation to stress/tone" rule. It might fit in with your existing pattern for light and heavy syllables, and that'd be a nice little surprise, or it might end up being an interesting curveball, and who doesn't enjoy those to make a language feel more real?

I have such examples as:
ˈmá.za.yum "sea" > ˈmá.za.um > má.ˈzuum (pitch accent existing outside of stress window should not be allowed)
ha.ˈzaá.wim "boar" > ha.ˈzaá.im > ha.ˈzíim
da.ˈwál.ni "I dig up" > da.ˈál.ni > ˈdaál.ni

I am thinking perhaps, that I will include consonants as relevant with regards to stress, but irrelevant with regards to tone. This means that, regarding stress, CVV and CVC syllables are equivalent, but, regarding tone, CVV and CVC are not equivalent.

Thus you get this:

Bisyllables:

Spoiler:

ˈcv́—cv
ˈcv́—cv•v
ˈcv́—cv•c
ˈcv́—cv•v•c or cv—ˈcv́•v•c

ˈcv́•v—cv
ˈcv•v́—cv•v
ˈcv́•v—cv•c
ˈcv•v́—cv•v•c or cv•v—ˈcv́•v•c

ˈcv́•c—cv
ˈcv́•c—cv•v
ˈcv́•c—cv•c
ˈcv́•c—cv•v•c or cv•c—ˈcv́•v•c

ˈcv́•v•c—cv
ˈcv•v́•c—cv•v
ˈcv́•v•c—cv•c
ˈcv•v́•c—cv•v•c or cv•v•c—ˈcv́•v•c

Polysyllables greater than two (penultimate stress):

Spoiler:

(σ—)ˈcv́•v—cv
(σ—)ˈcv•v́—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv́•v—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv•v́—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv•v—ˈcv́•v•c

(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv
(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv•c—ˈcv́•v•c

(σ—)ˈcv́•v•c—cv
(σ—)ˈcv•v́•c—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv́•v•c—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv•v́•c—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv•v•c—ˈcv́•v•c

Polysyllables greater than two (antepenultimate stress):

Spoiler:

(σ—)ˈcv́—cv—cv
(σ—)ˈcv́—cv—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv́—cv—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv́—cv—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv—cv—ˈcv́•v•c

(σ—)ˈcv•v́—cv—cv
(σ—)ˈcv•v́—cv—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv•v́—cv—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv•v́—cv—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv•v—cv—ˈcv́•v•c

(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv—cv
(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv́•c—cv—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv•c—cv—ˈcv́•v•c

(σ—)ˈcv•v́•c—cv—cv
(σ—)ˈcv•v́•c—cv—cv•v
(σ—)ˈcv•v́•c—cv—cv•c
(σ—)ˈcv•v́•c—cv—cv•v•c or (σ—)cv•v•c—cv—ˈcv́•v•c

There is however the issue of tone possibly falling outside of the stressed syllable, which means that the tone has to either be pushed backwards or pushed forwards, because the tone cannot exist where the stress does not.

[Visions1]

I was actually wondering that. I like it.
If I can be any help, please let me know. I can't say I'll be able to see my PMs so often, but if you give me clear goals and direction, I'd love good puzzles, like this.

[Creyeditor]

[...]

Generally, I treat the final mora of a word as extrametrical (and thus the accent always falls on a vowel), but I don't know what to do about final superheavy syllables. If normal heavy syllables (CVV and CVC) are treated the same as light syllables, then I don't know if superheavy sylllables should also be treated as light (thus counting two moras as extra-metrical) or as normal heavy (only counting one mora as extra metrical).

This is especially complicated due to the the origins of the superheavy syllables, which by all logic and reason should mean the final superheavy syllable can be stressed if it originates from stressed penult fusing with an unstressed ult).

And of course, there is also superheavy syllables in places other than the final syllables, which would also complicate things.

Perhaps I should just consider the final mora of superheavy syllables to be extra-metrical across the board (though I think that is weird given their origins and also since other syllable types would not be so affected)?

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have other ideas/strategies to employ?
[...]

Very interesting questions. Maybe we can split up the problem?

Let's look at final superheavy syllables first. If we assume throughout that only the final mora is extrametrical and that stress in on the penultimate non-extrametrical mora, final superheavy syllables would cause stress on the final syllable. This is what Arabic does, so it should be naturalistic in general.

Penultimate superheavy syllables would act the following, IIUC (again under the assumption that only the final mora is extrametrical and that stress is on the penultimate non-extrametrical mora): If the final syllable is light or heavy, they would cause penultimate stress. IINM, the same is true for your heavy syllables, right? So there would be no actual difference in stress for penultimate (or non-final) superheavy syllables compared to heavy syllables.

All of this assumes that stress is computed after superheavy syllables are formed. I think it makes sense to think about timing, as Sangi mentioned.

If the stress and the pitch accent requirements clash for superheavy syllables, you have a conflict that you could resolve. You could have several options: You could move stress exceptionally to accomodate pitch accent. Or you could move pitch accent to accomodate stress. You could shorten superheavy final syllables and reassign stress as if they were heavy in order to accomodate pitch accent. Serbo-Croation might be a good language to look at for the interaction between stress, length, and pitch accent.

Edit: I started writing this reply before reading Sangi's replies (and your replies to the replies), so I might have missed some things.

[Ahzoh]

I was actually wondering that. I like it.
If I can be any help, please let me know. I can't say I'll be able to see my PMs so often, but if you give me clear goals and direction, I'd love good puzzles, like this.

Well here's a puzzle, where do I put the stress and the tone for examples 2 and 3?

Again, dash (—) indicates syllable boundary while middle dot (•) indicates mora boundary, and sigma (σ) represents a whole syllable. Also H is a "weak consonant" that is elided.

1. Bisyllable (penultimate stress):
1.a) ˈcv́—ʜv > ˈcv́—v > ˈcv́•v
1.b) ˈcv́—ʜv•v > ˈcv́—v•v > ˈcv́•v
1.c) ˈcv́—ʜv•c > ˈcv́—v•c > ˈcv́•v•c

2. Polysyllable (antepenultimate stress):
2.a) ˈ(σ—)cv—ʜv > ˈ(σ—)cv—v > (σ—)cv•v
2.b) ˈ(σ—)cv—ʜv•v > ˈ(σ—)cv—v•v > (σ—)cv•v
2.c) ˈ(σ—)cv—ʜv•c > ˈ(σ—)cv—v•c > (σ—)cv•v•c

3. Polysyllable (penultimate stress):
3.a) (σ—)ˈcv́•v—ʜv > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—v > (σ—)cv•v
3.b) (σ—)ˈcv́•v—ʜv•v > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—v•v > (σ—)cv•v
3.c) (σ—)ˈcv́•v—ʜv•c > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—v•c > (σ—)cv•v•c

4. Polysyllable (penultimate stress):
4.a) (σ—)ˈcv́•c—ʜv > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—cv
4.b) (σ—)ˈcv́•c—ʜv•v > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—cv•v
4.c) (σ—)ˈcv́•c—ʜv•c > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—cv•c

[Omzinesý]

Which languages use palatalization/assibilation as a morphological marker in their verb paradigms?
Latvian verb is interesting but I need other languages for reference for not copying one.
Conlangs are welcomed too.

[Ahzoh]

Which languages use palatalization/assibilation as a morphological marker in their verb paradigms?
Latvian verb is interesting but I need other languages for reference for not copying one.
Conlangs are welcomed too.

Romanian can mark masculine with word-final palatalization. I try to use it in one of my conlangs to mark plural.

[HolyHandGrenade!]

Any ideas for documenting my alien octopus language?

[Creyeditor]

Have you heard of Rikchick? See here: https://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/la ... guage.html
This might give you some ideas.

[HolyHandGrenade!]

Have you heard of Rikchick? See here: https://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/la ... guage.html
This might give you some ideas.

The problem is that this language is 3 dimensional, so a 2D image won’t work well. The ideas I had were a perpendicular and parrallel images side-by-side, or some kind of 3D program

[Creyeditor]

Could you go with a classic math graph-like image with x axis, y axis, and z axis?
Also, does your language have movements or is it static like rikchik?

[HolyHandGrenade!]

That’s a good point. It does have movement. It also has color changing, though I haven’t determined the extent to which my species can change color.

[Creyeditor]

If you want to code movement you might want to read up on Sign language orthographies. SLIPA might be a good start https://dedalvs.com/slipa.html. But Wikipedia is probably your friend, too.

[Ahzoh]

Given this:
cv₁.ˈv₂v₂ > ˈcv₂v₂
cv₁v₁.ˈv₂v₂ > (cv₁.v₂v₂ >) ˈcv₂v₂
e.g. saˈii > ˈsii; saaˈii > saˈii > ˈsii

What's supposed to happen to the tone?
cv₁.ˈv́₂v₂ > ???
cv₁v₁.ˈv́₂v₂ > ???

[HolyHandGrenade!]

If you want to code movement you might want to read up on Sign language orthographies. SLIPA might be a good start https://dedalvs.com/slipa.html. But Wikipedia is probably your friend, too.

Unfortunately, sign orthographies are designed for human sign languages. Although I could try to modify one to suit my needs.