Ave Maria

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Znex
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Ave Maria

Post by Znex »

It doesn't look like this has been posted before, so I'll just make this thread up so I have somewhere to put my Langrois translation.

:eng: English
Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee,
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.


:grc: Church Greek
Spoiler:
[Θεοτόκε Παρθένε], χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία,
ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξί,
καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, Ἰησοῦς, [ὅτι Σωτῆρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν].
Ἁγία Μαρία, Μῆτερ τοῦ Θεοῦ,
προσεύχου ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν τῶν ἁμαρτωλῶν
νῦν καὶ κατὰ τὴν ὥραν τοῦ θανάτου ἡμῶν. Ἀμήν.

Transcription:
Spoiler:
/θeotóke parθéne | xére kexaritoméni maría/
/o círios metá sú/
/evloʝiméni sí en ʝineksí/
/ce evloʝiménos o karpós tís cilías su jisús | óti sotíra étekes tón psixón imón/
/aʝía maría míter tú θeú/
/proséfxu ipér imón tón amartolón/
/nín ce katá tín óran tú θanátu imón amín/
Gloss:
Spoiler:
god-bearer-VOC virgin-VOC | rejoice-PRS.IMP.2SG PF-grace-PF.MID.PART.F.VOC.SG Mary-VOC
DEF.M.NOM.SG Lord-NOM.SG with 2SG.GEN
bless-AOR.MID.PART.F.NOM.SG 2SG.NOM among woman-DAT.PL
and bless-AOR.MID.PART.M.NOM.SG DEF.M.NOM.SG fruit-NOM.SG DEF.F.GEN.SG womb-GEN.SG 2SG.GEN Jesus-NOM | for saviour-ACC.SG AOR-give_birth-AOR.ACT.2SG DEF.F.GEN.PL soul-GEN.PL 1PL-GEN
holy-VOC.SG Mary-VOC mother.VOC DEF.M.GEN.SG God-GEN
pray-PRS.IMP.2SG for 1PL-GEN DEF.M.GEN.PL sinner-GEN.PL
now and at DEF.F.ACC.SG hour-ACC.SG DEF.M.GEN.SG death-GEN.SG 1PL-GEN amen
:lat: Ecclesiastical Latin
Spoiler:
Ávē Marī́a, grā́tiā plḗna,
Dóminus tḗcum.
Benedícta tū in muliéribus,
et benedíctus frū́ctus véntris túī, Iḗsūs.
Sā́ncta Marī́a, Mā́ter Déī,
ṓrā prō nṓbīs peccātṓribus,
nunc et in hṓrā mórtis nóstrae. Āmēn.

Gloss:
Spoiler:
hail-PRS.IMP.2SG Mary-VOC grace-GEN.SG full-VOC.SG
Lord-NOM.SG 2SG.ACC=with
bless-PF.PASS.PART.F.NOM.SG 2SG.NOM among woman-DAT.PL
and bless-PF.PASS.PART.M.NOM.SG fruit-NOM.SG womb-GEN.SG 2SG.GEN Jesus-NOM
holy-VOC.SG Mary-VOC mother.VOC God-GEN
pray-PRS.IMP.2SG for 1PL-GEN sinner-GEN.PL
now and at hour-ACC.SG death-GEN.SG 1PL.POSS-F.GEN.SG amen
:qya: Quenya
Spoiler:
Aia María quanta Eruanno,
i Héru aselyë.
Aistana elyë imíca nísi,
ar aistana i yávë mónalyo Yésus.
Airë María Eruo ontaril,
á hyamë rámen úcarindor
sí ar lúmessë ya firuvammë: násië.

Gloss:
Spoiler:
hail Mary full God_gift-GEN
DEF Lord with-2SG.POL
bless-PASS.PART 2SG.POL.EMPH among woman-PL
and bless-PASS.PART DEG fruit womb-2SG.POL.POSS-GEN Jesus
holy Mary God-GEN mother
IMP pray-AOR for-1PL.EXCL.DAT sinner-PL
now and time-LOC REL die-FUT-1PL.EXCL amen
:con: Langrois
Spoiler:
Old Langrois:
Spoiler:
Lonneth uernat, Mairi, luon o truohaire,
is urithat ind Brihentin.

Transcription:
/lɔn'neθ wer'nat mɛ'ri | luo̯n o θruo̯'xɛr/
/is wri'θat inn briɛn'tin/
Gloss:
joy on-2SG Mary full of PREP\mercy
be.3SG with-2SG DEF.M.SG Lord
Modern Langrois
Spoiler:
Sé lonneç orno sui, Mairie, loun o çrouere,
ne Brienn sé reço sui.

Transcription:
/se 'lɔnɛs 'ɔrnɔ sɥi 'mɛ:ri | lu:n o 'sruɛ̯r/
/nə briɛ̯n se 'resɔ sɥi/
Gloss:
be.IMP.3SG joy on.INFL.PL 2PL Mary full of PREP\mercy
DEF.M.SG Lord be.PRED with.INFL.PL 2PL
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by lsd »

:con: 3SDL :
qoøüq`ó\qtø÷h`~ûúf\qsbh]‡bh`\qtø÷UVábh`qf×`tø÷\qtø÷UV×`~öúqtø÷UVoøü×]p\\qtø÷UV×`~öúh]‡bh`\qo^~öú‡øüoČĉé^Uq^WVXø÷Y

(human named mary, human benefiting from all the gifts, human where the one above all, human designated and in the totality of women, human designated and to the womb having given the man named Jesus, human designated and to the womb having given the one above all, to the words that protects us having soiled, living and future dying...)
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Pāṇini
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by Pāṇini »

I've recently started studying pre-modern Hebrew, and this seems like a good place to start translating. There are a handful of Greco-Roman and Christian concepts here which are a bit tricky to translate—both hail as a greeting and grace and sin as ideas are somewhat foreign to Jewish thought, but not entirely untranslateable.

Classical Hebrew :isr:
שָלוֹם־עָלַיִךְ מִרְיָם, אֲשֶׁר מָצְאָה חֵן, אֲדֹנָי אִתָּךְ.
בָּרוּכָה אַתְּ מִן־נָשִׁים וּבָּרוּךְ פְּרִי־בִּטְנֵךְ, יֵשׁוּעַ.
מִרְיָם קָדוּשָׁה, אֵם־אֱלֹהִים, תִּתְפַּלֵּל־נָא אֵלֶינוּ אֲשֶׁר חוֹטְאִים
עַתָּה וּבַּעֵת מוֹתֵנוּ. אָמֵן.
Spoiler:
Transliteration (according to the SBL system):
Spoiler:
Šālôm ʿālayiḵ Miryām, ʾăšer māṣəʾāh ḥēn, ʾĂḏōnāi ʾittāḵ.
Bārûḵāh ʾat min nāšîm ûbbārûḵ pərî biṭnēḵ, Yēšûaʿ.
Miryām qāḏûšāh, ʾēm ʾĔlōhîm, tiṯpallēl nāʾ ʾēlênû ʾăšer ḥôṭəʾîm
ʿattāh ûbbaʿēṯ môṯēnû. ʾĀmēn.
Phonetic realization (in early medieval Tiberian Hebrew)
Spoiler:
ʃɔˈloːom ɔˈlaːiχ miʀˈjɔːɔm ‖ ʔaˈʃɛːɛʀ mɔsˤɔˈʔɔː ħeːen ‖ aðoːˈnɔːɔj ʔitˈtɔːɔχ
bɔʀuːˈχɔː ʔaːat min nɔˈʃiːim uːbbɔˈʀuːuχ piˈʀiː bitˤˈneːeχ ‖ jeːˈʃuːɑʕ
miʀˈjɔːɔm qɔðuːˈʃɔː ‖ eːem ʔɛloːˈhiːim ‖ tiθpalˈleːel nɔːɔʔ ʔeˈlɛːɛjnuː ʔaˈʃɛːɛʀ ħoːtˤiʔiːim
ʕɑtˈtɔː uːbɑˈʕeːeθ moːˈθeːnuː ‖ ɔˈmeːen
Gloss
Spoiler:
peace upon=2FSG.ACC Mary | REL find.2SG.PFVE grace | Lord=1SG.GEN with=3FSG.ACC
blessed-F 2FSG ABL woman.PL-PL and=blessed(.M) fruit(.CSCT) womb=2FSG.ACC | Jesus
Mary holy-F | mother(.CSCT) God | 3FSG-pray.JUSS please for=1PL.ACC REL miss_mark.PART-PL
now and=in.DEF=time(.CSCT) death=1PL.GEN | amen
EDIT: a relative clause
Last edited by Pāṇini on 20 Oct 2022 14:49, edited 1 time in total.
天含青海道。城頭月千里。
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by Znex »

Pāṇini wrote: 20 Oct 2022 00:12 I've recently started studying pre-modern Hebrew, and this seems like a good place to start translating. There are a handful of Greco-Roman and Christian concepts here which are a bit tricky to translate—both hail as a greeting and grace and sin as ideas are somewhat foreign to Jewish thought, but not entirely untranslateable.
I don't doubt that what they later develop to be in Christian thought is more foreign to Jewish thought, but I find it unlikely that the Greek words weren't originally translations of Jewish ideas. Let me find/translate the Classical Syriac version for comparison (I've transcribed the below into Hebrew letters too):

:ara: Syriac
ܫܠܵܡ ܠܸܟ݂ܝ ܡܲܪܝܲܡ ܡܲܠܝܲܬ݂ ܛܲܝܒ݁ܘܿܬ݂ܵܐ ܡܵܪܲܢ ܥܲܡܸܟ݂ܝ
ܡܒ݂ܲܪܲܟ݂ܬ݁ܵܐ ܐܲܢܬ݁ܝ ܒ݁ܢܸܫܹܐ ܘܲܡܒ݂ܲܪܲܟ݂ ܗܘܿ ܦܹ݁ܐܪܵܐ ܕ݁ܲܒ݂ܟ݂ܲܪܣܸܟ݂ܝ ܝܼܫܘܿܥ
ܩܲܕ݁ܝܼܫܬ݁ܵܐ ܡܲܪܝܲܡ ܐܸܡܹܗ ܕ݁ܲܐܠܵܗܵܐ
ܨܲܠܵܝ ܥܠܲܝܢ ܚܲܛܵܝܼܐ ܗܵܫܵܐ ܘܲܒ݁ܫܵܥܲܬ݂ ܡܲܘܬ݁ܲܢ ܐܲܡܹܝܢ
שׁלָם לֵכי מַריַם מַליַת טַיבּוּתָא מָרַן עַמֵכי
מבַרַכתָּא אַנתּי בּנֵשֵׁא וַמבַרַכ הוּ פּאִרָא דַּבכַרסֵכי יֵשׁוּע
קַדִּישׁתָּא מַריַם אֵמֵה דַּאלָהָא
צַלָי עלַין חַטָיֵא הָשָׁא וַבּשָׁעַתּ מַותַּן אַמִין
Transcription:
Spoiler:
šəlām leḵ maryam | malyaṯ ṭaybūṯā | māran ᶜammeḵ
məḇarraḵtā ᵓat bənešše | wamḇarraḵ ū pīrā daḇḵarseḵ yešūᶜ
qaddīštā maryam | ᵓemmēh dălāhā
ṣalāy ᶜəlayn ḥaṭāyē | hāšā wabəšāᶜaṯ mawtan | ᵓamīn
Gloss:
Spoiler:
peace to-2FSG Mary | fill.PASS.PART-F.SG.CONST grace-SG.EMPH | Lord-SG.EMPH-1PL.POSS with-2FSG
SUBJ-bless.PAEL.PASS.PART-F.SG.EMPH 2FSG among=woman.PL-PL.EMPH | and=PART-bless.PAEL.PASS.PART.MSG.ABS 3MSG fruit-PL.EMPH of=from=womb-2FSG.POSS Jesus
holy-F.SG.EMPH Mary | mother-3MSG.POSS of=God-SG.EMPH
pray.IMP-F.SG for-1PL sinner-PL.EMPH | now and=in=hour-SG.CONST death-1PL.POSS | amen
The first two lines are directly from the Peshitta translation of Luke 1, except for the additions of Mary and Jesus' names. If I see how the Greek words are used in the Septuagint and compare them with their Hebrew counterparts...

κεχαριτωμένη kekharitōménē | grā́tiā plḗna | full of grace - this full Greek word is likely a hapax legomenon, but the plain Greek word χάρις kháris is indeed the usual translation for חֵן ḥēn {favour, mercy, grace}. The generic "full of" construction, in Greek as πλήρης plḗrēs + GEN, seems to correspond well to the Hebrew N + מלא mlʾ {to be full, to fill}, eg. as in Ps 33:5 חֶ֥סֶד יְ֝הוָ֗ה מָלְאָ֥ה הָאָֽרֶץ ḥesed YHWH mālʾāh hāʾāreṣ "the earth is full of the Lord's lovingkindness".

ἁμαρτωλός hamartōlós | peccā́tor | sinner/sinful - this Greek word and its root verb ἁμαρτάνω hamartánō and root noun ἁμαρτία hamartíā appear very frequently in the NT and the LXX as translations for חטא ḥṭʾ {to miss (a goal, the mark), to make a mistake, to do wrong}. ἁμαρτωλός hamartōlós also sometimes doubles as a translation for רָשָׁע rāšāʿ {evil}.
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Pāṇini
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by Pāṇini »

Znex wrote: 20 Oct 2022 09:36
The first two lines are directly from the Peshitta translation of Luke 1, except for the additions of Mary and Jesus' names. If I see how the Greek words are used in the Septuagint and compare them with their Hebrew counterparts...

κεχαριτωμένη kekharitōménē | grā́tiā plḗna | full of grace - this full Greek word is likely a hapax legomenon, but the plain Greek word χάρις kháris is indeed the usual translation for חֵן ḥēn {favour, mercy, grace}. The generic "full of" construction, in Greek as πλήρης plḗrēs + GEN, seems to correspond well to the Hebrew N + מלא mlʾ {to be full, to fill}, eg. as in Ps 33:5 חֶ֥סֶד יְ֝הוָ֗ה מָלְאָ֥ה הָאָֽרֶץ ḥesed YHWH mālʾāh hāʾāreṣ "the earth is full of the Lord's lovingkindness".

ἁμαρτωλός hamartōlós | peccā́tor | sinner/sinful - this Greek word and its root verb ἁμαρτάνω hamartánō and root noun ἁμαρτία hamartíā appear very frequently in the NT and the LXX as translations for חטא ḥṭʾ {to miss (a goal, the mark), to make a mistake, to do wrong}. ἁμαρτωλός hamartōlós also sometimes doubles as a translation for רָשָׁע rāšāʿ {evil}.
I'm happy to see that most of my choices lined up fairly well with both these and the Syriac. I was unsure of the Hebrew equivalent to the "full of" construction, but a quick look at Strong's showed that חֵן ḥēn is typical of the Biblical phrase לִמְצאֹ חֵן בְּעֵינֵי limṣōʾ ḥēn bəʿênê "to find grace in the eyes of". Consequently, I used מצא mṣʾ "to find". Similarly, I wasn't confident enough that I would be able to create a valid agent noun for the root חטא ḥṭʾ, so I used a relative clause.
天含青海道。城頭月千里。
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
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Znex
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by Znex »

Pāṇini wrote: 20 Oct 2022 14:34 I'm happy to see that most of my choices lined up fairly well with both these and the Syriac. I was unsure of the Hebrew equivalent to the "full of" construction, but a quick look at Strong's showed that חֵן ḥēn is typical of the Biblical phrase לִמְצאֹ חֵן בְּעֵינֵי limṣōʾ ḥēn bəʿênê "to find grace in the eyes of". Consequently, I used מצא mṣʾ "to find". Similarly, I wasn't confident enough that I would be able to create a valid agent noun for the root חטא ḥṭʾ, so I used a relative clause.
Btw, I only found this concordance after the fact, but this Septuagint concordance by Hatch and Redpath is really good to refer to as well. This has not only the different places where each Greek word can be found in the LXX, but more often than not what Hebrew word each word corresponds to.

Just looking at ἁμαρτωλός hamartōlós again in the Hatch and Redpath concordance for instance, and ἁμαρτωλός is used very particularly in the Psalms to translate רָשָׁע rāšāʿ! More often than not outside the Psalms however, it corresponds to חַטָּא ḥaṭṭāʾ, which seems to be used as either a nominal or an adjective, same as in Greek.
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Yélian

Ave Maria, vèrtescebalt,
A'GÒT bit fecun'sanet
Ramánquosatsbalt oci'ǽiæ,
èpa ramánquosǽlbit a'cvam sanim o'yùlia, Jesus.
Mariaveriyats, méva o'GÒT,
erbavat can'renut, a'cifatʻin,
carat èpa cu eduts renim on'olkon. Amen.

Spoiler:
Ave Maria, vèrtescebalt, A'GÒT bit fecun'sanet
[ˈaːʋə mɐˈɾiː.ɐ, ˈvɛɾˌteskəbalt, ɐˈgɔ̈t‿ə‿bɨt ˈɸeːkʉn ˈsaːnət]
hail mary, graceful-COP.2SG.HON, DEF.ANIM=god COP.3SG.ANIM with=2SG.HON.OBL
Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with thee

Ramánquosatsbalt oci'ǽiæ, èpa ramánquosǽlbit a'cvam sanim o'yùlia, Jesus.
[rɐˈmaŋkɔ̯sɐt͡sbɐlt ˈoːkɨ ˈœːɪ̯ə, ˈɛpɐ rɐˌmaŋkɔ̈ˈsœlbɨt ɐˈkvam ˈsaːnɨm ɔ̈ˈʃʉlɪ̯ɐ, ˈɪ̯eːsʉs]
PROP-bless-ADZ-COP.2SG.HON among woman.PL, and PROP-blessed-COP.3SG.ANIM DEF.ANIM=seed 2SG.HON.POSS DEF.GEN=womb, Jesus.
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Mariaveriyats, méva o'GÒT, erbavat can'renut, a'cifatʻin, carat èpa cu eduts renim on'olkon. Amen.
[mɐˈɾiː.ɐʋəˌɾa̯iːɐt͡s, ˈmeːʋɐ ɔ̈ˈgɔ̈t, ˈeɾbɐʋɐt‿ɐn ˈɾeːnʉt, ɐkɨˈɸatʔɨn, ˈkaːɾɐt ˈɛpɐ kʉ ˈeːdʉt͡s ˈɾeːnɨm ɔ̈ˈnolkɔ̈n. ˈaːmən]
Maria-be_hallowed-ADZ, mother DEF.GEN=god, pray-JUS.2SG.HON for=1PLEX.OBL, DEF.ANIM=sinner-PL, now and at hour 1PLEX.POSS DEF.GEN=death | amen
New/rethought words:

cvam [kvam] - seed, fruit, offspring (of a woman)
Extension of meaning: cvam only signified the seed of a plant so far.

yùlia [ˈʃʉlɨ̯ɐ] - womb, uterus
Etymology: new root

cifatʻi [kɨˈɸatʔi] - sinner
Etymology: from cifa "to sin" + isolated nominalizer -tʻi, of uncertain origin. It is not attested in any other word.
Please call me Iyion [ˈiːɕɪ̯ɔ̈n]
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lsd
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by lsd »

addendum:
for Maria : maryamey (this (wo)man protector of men)
for Jesus : jiesaya (this seed to listen)
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Re: Ave Maria

Post by Dormouse559 »

:con: Faux-Phrygian

Ὀγκέ, λελαλκαμενά Μαρία,
Τεἅναρ ἄρτ θέ.
Παψιμνενά θού εγ κναήκμος,
παψίμνενον τέ βέρμαν τάς κελβοώτας, Ἱέσους.
Ἱάκια Μαρία, Μάτερ Δεἕο,
καριστέ ἀν ἐμίν τός μελοώκος,
νούν κ ἀθ ἱοράε κε μροτέος ἐμέὁν. Ἀμέν.


Onké, lelalkamená María,
Tehánar árt thé.
Papsimnená thoú en knaíkmos,
papsímnenon té bérman tás kelboǘtas, Hiésous.
Hiákia María, Máter Dehéo,
karisté an emín tós meloǘkos,
noún k ath hioráe ke mrotéos eméhon. Amén.

IPA:
Spoiler:
/oŋˈke lelalkameˈna maˈrija/
/teˈhanar ˈart ˈtʰe/
/papsimneˈna ˈtʰu eŋ ˈknajkmos/
/papˈsimnenon ˈte ˈberman ˈtas kelˈbowtas | ˈj̥esus/
/ˈj̥akija maˈrija | ˈmater deˈhejo/
/karisˈte an eˈmin ˈtos meˈlowkos/
/ˈnun k‿atʰ j̥oˈrae ke mroˈtejos eˈmehon | aˈmen/
Gloss:
Spoiler:
be_well_PRS.IMP.2S PRF-give_grace-PRF.PTCP-F.VOC Mary-VOC
lord.NOM with 2S.ACC
PRF-bless-PRF.PTCP-F.NOM 2S.NOM among woman-PL.DAT
PRF-bless-PRF.PTCP-N.NOM and fruit.NOM DEF-F.GEN womb-2.POSS-GEN | Jesus-NOM
holy-F.VOC Mary-VOC | mother-VOC god-GEN
pray-PRS.IMP.2S on 1P.EXCL.DAT DEF-M.PL.DAT sinner-PROX-PL.DAT
now and at hour-DAT and death-GEN 1P.EXCL.GEN | amen

New words
ἀψίνο (apsíno) v - bless (< Middle Iranian *āfrīnam)
λάλκα (lálka) nf - love, benevolence, favor, (Christianity) grace (reduplication < PIE *h₂leg- "care for")
λαλκέο (lalkéo) v - care for; give grace; give favor (< λάλκα)
μελές (melés) - (as adj.) sinful, evil; (as noun) sinner (< PIE *mel-)
νούν (noún) adv - now (< PIE *nu)
Ὀγκέ! (Onké!) interj. - Hello! Hail! (PRS.IMP of ὀγκέο)
ὀγκέο (onkéo) v - be well; be strong (verbalized zero-grade of PIE *méǵh₂s)
τεἅναρ (tehánar) nm - lord, master (< PIE *déms h₂nḗr "man of the house")

— I'm super enamored with λελαλκαμενά "full of grace, having been given grace" — peak Quenya aesthetics! It's just too bad that it probably isn't used anywhere else. At least the root, λάλκα, is more broadly applicable. Besides that, the overall translation is pleasant to pronounce.

— As I said above, Ὀγκέ! "Hello!" is a present imperative form. In order to say "goodbye," you can just put it in the perfect imperative, which demands that a current action continue: Ὀγκεήδι (Onkeḯdi) "Goodbye! Continue being well!"

— Finding some new uses for the deictic/possessive suffixes. They can be used in places where English puts a noun in apposition to a pronoun, e.g. τός μελοώκος (DEF-M.PL.DAT sinner-PROX-PL.DAT) "us sinners."
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