Siųa

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Testyal
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Re: Siųa

Post by Testyal »

Pff, I've been conlanging for more than a year and I know practically none of the vocabulary and features I'm supposed to know.

Damn good phonology, though. Lots of pages to keep me amused.
:deu: :fra: :zho: :epo:
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Here is part of the chapter on tense marking. Lots of examples and a lot of glossed ones too.
This only for the past vs. non-past.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7216892/tenses.pdf
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Siųa

Post by eldin raigmore »

MONOBA wrote:Here is part of the chapter on tense marking. Lots of examples and a lot of glossed ones too.
This only for the past vs. non-past.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7216892/tenses.pdf


I like it; and so, naturally, I'm only going to talk about what's wrong with it. (That's just how we conlangers roll!)

First: there are places where you left the final <e> off <tense>, and have <tens> instead. Just a typo, but I figured you'd want to know.

Second: "Thematic" vs "athematic" makes it sound like you're an Indo-Europeanist and your language is an Indo-European language. Why not just "vowel-final" and "consonant-final" and "cluster-final"?

In I-E languages, if the wordbase ends in a vowel, exactly which vowel it ends in is called its "theme" by I-Eists, and does a lot to govern what happens to the next suffix to be added to it.

But "theme" already means so many damned things that IMO you should avoid it unless it's
just too damned hard to do so. And "vowel-final" for "thematic", "final vowel" for "theme", "consonant-final" for "athematic", and "cluster-final" for "complex athematic", are IMO much, much more transparent terms.

Besides; what's really happening is that, if your wordbase doesn't end in a consonant-cluster, then the final phoneme -- whether vowel or consonant -- gets mutated, along with the initial phoneme of the tense-suffix. The major division, for purposes of description, is really "cluster-final" vs "not cluster-final", rather than "vowel-final" vs "consonant-final". Or at least that's my opinion.

-------------------------------------

I need to read it more and comment more, but I have to leave town in about 14 minutes.

I like it so far, so I plan to continue finding things wrong with it. [;)]
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Thank you so much for your feedback! This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking to make better. I find all my wording in English to be so awkward and n00bish.

I'll absolutely take your suggestion. Many many thanks!

Ihhįa!
Thanks!

EDIT:

The reason I had 2 groups is that one single group was too massive to be treated elegantly. I just wanted to break it down to make it easier to understand. I find that one big giant chart is less effective than a bunch of smaller ones with examples. And since two separate changes occur (consonant change was originally triggered by the past ending -θ- while vowel polarization evolved parallel to this), I thought it'd be clearer to show them as being separate groups.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Siųa

Post by eldin raigmore »

MONOBA wrote:Thank you so much for your feedback! This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking to make better. I find all my wording in English to be so awkward and n00bish.
I'll absolutely take your suggestion. Many many thanks!
Ihhįa!
Thanks!

I'm glad you realized it was an attempt to help make a good thing better, rather than being discouraging.


MONOBA wrote:The reason I had 2 groups is that one single group was too massive to be treated elegantly. I just wanted to break it down to make it easier to understand. I find that one big giant chart is less effective than a bunch of smaller ones with examples. And since two separate changes occur (consonant change was originally triggered by the past ending -θ- while vowel polarization evolved parallel to this), I thought it'd be clearer to show them as being separate groups.

That's entirely reasonable; those are good reasons to do what you do. It might help if you explained that in a more obvious place. But probably that would be "nice" instead of "necessary".
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Just some Siųa writing.


Kimra ruoiknei sengylka tiẻudi tavmi takehka. Saski mi gata on růihpuiska eterita auris, katadỉ ka koakųaga lủri sevaġika mỷtylhamo. Õde muhu myry. Kirhia usegįi hovmorumatta sikuvti. Kỉprirui tidẻu eskot. Goaka on boįa to, nįolaga te noivmita, nỷmkka te tinin, keidi te taga. Mįa kakįuka on rokka, raįa ka mioldi arta.
Ġỉdli mi metari tiniralkika, seįaṡi on lungitta kuihlanuhotima. Sipi na de tamovveri-ni kuohhi; kỉprirủ tiẻudi, ġỉdlima tinis, kuihlanuhuma lungitta. Kovmỉ homottite eppi na, seįaṡi ivta siehkįototima sỷkehmoibma. Piegįukka takeri, kemṡuhemta eskodna ketsġo. Kimra uvtemi, sůppi sikuvti, unyvnįylhi.
Mįahha, goakaki on vảlkita kimi tatamuhka ỏlka niṡenotima, numaki ka kivnehon sỷma bilįoita kimi kirhi. Rihna on noivma arrui nokohi ivṡi uvsủ ulįa ubuhotu, iri daikot, õde ka taurįuni, vevlu dẻ sayklia migįila.



In the morning, our friend wakes up slightly to the sound of young birds. Waking up for good, he yawns into the fresh air and steps outside and feels the warm heat from yesterday night's burnt embers. The flies are still hidden. Early in the morning, no sound can be heard. Only the chirping of the chicks. So he picks up a branch, stirs in the fire, piles up firewood and lights a new fire. Then he cuts some fresh wood and brings it close to the flames.
As the firelogs crackle, one can hear the steam evaporate. There are only these three sounds; the chirping of the chicks, the crackling of the firewood and the evaporating steam. It is so quiet, that our friend can hear a raven land on the dry pine needle bed. He greets this one, as one did when seing the morning's first bird. Black morning bird, no trouble, as we say.
After that, he goes to pick a few green leaves for tea, and goes to pick a handful of berries for his early morning hunger. There is a fish resting on a stick that was smoked during the night, from which he takes a bite, which is still fresh, as the night dew protected it.
Last edited by MONOBA on 03 Feb 2012 07:54, edited 1 time in total.
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Here is what I have so far for the dictionary! I've more of less finished compiling individual words from my documents, now I'm going through the examples and their verbs and nouns.

I'm counting about 1650 words. The forms in italics are;

nouns > genitive/stative form
verbs > past
adjectives > genitive/stative form

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7216892/wordlist.pdf
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Savla on nįalu vihlaika, vahsu mi bansita do koakųaṡi ka takeri. Komona suṡta on sidne belmubaski, nůvkủ de taįa tiehbaita. Muontia on hủntaita niddįi takeri, vevlu otomrõti avvi kaimeletsġiska ge oskos nemųihnaio debmi. Tįadnuma te kilįuma tahha sise sukin sihe, tįevvukkake kimi letsġi untsi mųihnodġu de. Sapru-ha, ta iųo odio tįadnami toa kadlotima. Tsavmuhkita muhu-ha tsamġa te, unyvnįylhi.

The flesh tastes good, as our friend feels himself growing stronger for the day. You see, it is going to be a long day's work, as he plans to have his hands full. The fellow decided to fix the above-ground food hut, because it got damaged when a male moose rubbed his velvet off on the support pole during the night. He has to find and cut down a tall, straight and thin tree to tie along the underside of the damaged pole. It might very well be a difficult task to find a suitable tree. In the thick of the forest, the forest itself disappears, as we say.

savla = well
nįalu = taste
vihlaika = from the flesh (flesh = vihla)
vahsu = become strong
mi = as, while
bansita = for/into today
do = is (-o marks inferential, because it's a feeling)
koakųa·ṡi = is able (·ṡi) to feel
takeri = he, our friend, the fellow
komona = so you see, you see, indeed
suṡta sidn·e = far it-will-last (·e marks inferential, because it's a prediction, i.e. it will be a long)
belmubaski = the work/chore day (belmu - work, baski - day) (day = bahhi)
nůvkủ = is planned, is drawn in the sand, is the strategy
de = because
taįa = much, a lot
tiehbaita = into the hands
muontia = X decided, X took the path
hủntaita = to fix, to glue together (hủ-)
niddįi = (of) the above-ground food hut (food hut = nỉ)
vevlu = by night, over the night
o·tomrõt·i = to rub one's velvet off of one's antlers, to scratch oneself with a branch/tree
avvi = as, while, by
keime·letsġi·ka = from the support (keime-) pole (letse)
ge = was, did (·e marks inferential, because not witnessed)
oskos = male moose (oskon)
ne·mųihnaio = it (the food hut) got damage (·o marks inferential, because conclusion)
debmi = because, as explained by
tįadn·um·a = X must (·mu·) find
kilį·um·a = X must (·mu·) chop/cut down, bring to the ground, KO
tahha = tree
sise = tall
sukin = straight
sihe = thin, narrow
tįevvukka·ke kimi = in order (·ke kimi) to tie
letsġi untsi = along the under side (untsi) of the pole
mųihn·odġ·u = which (·odġ) was damaged
de = is, will
sapru-ha = it is possible, as you know
ta = to be
iųo = trouble, difficult task
odio = that it could
tįadna·mi = to (·mi) find
toa = tree
kidl·ot·ima = that (·ot·) is suitable
tsavmuhkita = into the thick of the forest
muhu = disappear
tsamġa = forest
te = also, even
u·nyvnįyl·hi = one (u·) usually (·hi) says
Last edited by MONOBA on 03 Feb 2012 07:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Ceresz
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Re: Siųa

Post by Ceresz »

toa = tree
This one grabbed my attention. Mainly due to the meaning of the word toa in Swedish. It's the colloquial form of the word toalett, which obviously means 'toilet'.

I really need to start posting real comments...
Edit: Here's a 'real' comment: It would be nice to hear some more recordings of Siwa, if possible [:)]. Are there any Siwa folktales or something like that?
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

hehe. Toa is the alternative marked form of the word tahha 'tree'.

I can only record it on vocaroo for now. I'm at work. I'm also very tired.

http://vocaroo.com/?media=vuM2O09J0zOSlf4AL
Khemehekis
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Re: Siųa

Post by Khemehekis »

How many pages does the entire Siųa grammar run to?
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

It should be somewhere around 500 pages.
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Re: Siųa

Post by Khemehekis »

That's got to be one of the most elaborate artistic languages ever created! I like the way you micro-manage every aspect, just like a real language.

I think the record-setter for detail is Rolandt Tweehuysen's Spocanian, with 1,500 pages of grammar (with many exceptions) and a 25,000-word lexicon.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
roninbodhisattva
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Re: Siųa

Post by roninbodhisattva »

Khemehekis wrote: I think the record-setter for detail is Rolandt Tweehuysen's Spocanian, with 1,500 pages of grammar (with many exceptions) and a 25,000-word lexicon.
Succinctness is sometimes a virtue.
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Re: Siųa

Post by Khemehekis »

roninbodhisattva wrote:
Khemehekis wrote: I think the record-setter for detail is Rolandt Tweehuysen's Spocanian, with 1,500 pages of grammar (with many exceptions) and a 25,000-word lexicon.
Succinctness is sometimes a virtue.
Like in the Taoist Toki Pona (another masterpiece of conlanging)?
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Khemehekis wrote:That's got to be one of the most elaborate artistic languages ever created! I like the way you micro-manage every aspect, just like a real language.

I think the record-setter for detail is Rolandt Tweehuysen's Spocanian, with 1,500 pages of grammar (with many exceptions) and a 25,000-word lexicon.
Thank you! It apparently runs in the family...

But my "vision" is to write first a book of grammar (morphology, syntax, lots of texts and stories), and then a book of "people", and finally write a story in Siųa.

Every century needs its Tolkien!
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

More fun:


Talmegena
About clothings

Katutsġovi on de saṡgedia-ni talmuma Siustagi, katutatski ka, tohtua-hạ nihtaika.

Ỉmi talmuma tỏvmaba syngima ỉhta subma. Ỉlula ỉnka ugigi svotta nogįika ṡiṡi půtta ehhakka tuovma. Dakihia-ha na, ỉmi te õde ỉ mauhhosika mauhhosita-kįa on dįimuhi, gautra, įasukka, ogįikkanta te, dįihmula-kįa tavmi-ko te taga. Da Siustaįagi muovvuki muri-ko ruota nokkiutta-nen gagi, odatari;

Rybmy unokkotis muovvutta ramuskos tobohma. Unokki „nelppi“ koarymyma odna. Tohtuata de puvmika holotta, tsġovvua ka holopuniha, sahra ġalpot. Unokki on „lunįu“ heįerymyma ỉskid. Damṡika de tohtuata, eukkỉ ari tuvaltua, okįoti gi nonia.


-



In this section, we will discuss clothing of the Siųa people and consider what they are made from.

Our people's clothing has not changed in generations. Since for ever, the same seams have been exchanged from mother to daughter. In details, of course, the patterns, colors, skins, lacing, as well as many other characteristics have and continue to change from band to band. Siųa people have the following various dresses, each with its own name;

Rybmi is the name of legless dress of women. A summer rybmi is called nelppi. It is made from thin deer skin, which is why it is called holopuniha (thin-deerskinned), or ġalpot. The winter dress for women is called lunįu. As it is made from skin with fur, it is unfortunately a little bit heavier, but also warmer.


talmegena - chapter, section, part (gena) on clothing (talmu)

kat·u·tsġov·i - X will be described (u·Ø·i - be -ed, kat· - about, tsġov· - say of)
de saṡgedia-ni - in this chapter (saṡ· - talk, gedia - in the section, de Ø -ni - this)
Siustagi - of the Siųa people
kat·u·tatsk·i - X will be considered (u·Ø·i - be -ed, kat· - about, tatsk· - to think)
toht·u·a - is (·a) made (toht·u)
-ḥa - relative interrogation
nihta·ika - from (·ika) what (nihta·)

ỉmi - X changed
talmu·ma - clothing (nom. talmu)
syngi·ma - generation (nom. sykni)
ỉhta - any
s·ubma - not from, not since, not in
ỉlu·la - eternity (nom. ỉlủ)
ỉnka - since, for, ago
u·gig·i - was shared (u·Ø·i - be -ed)
svotta nogįika - from mother (nom. suosa) (lit. from the end of a mother)
ṡiṡi půtta - to daughter (nom. ṡini) (lit. to the point of a daughter)
ehha·kka - seam (nom. ehhama)
tuov·mo - same (nom. tuono)
dakih·ia - in detail (nom. dakis)
õde - still
ỉ - changes
mauhhos·ika - from band (nom. mauhhon)
mauhhos·ita-kįa - to other band
dįimuh·i - pattern (nom. dįibmus)
gaut·ra - color (nom. gauta)
įasu·kka - skin (nom. įasuma)
ogįikkan·ta - lacing, sowing with laces (nom. ogįikka·mi - to lace)
dįihmula-kįa - other characteristics (nom. dįihmủ)
tavmi-ko - many kind (nom. tama-ko)
te taga - as well as
da Siustaįagi - Siųa people have
muovv·u·ki - dresses, things that are worn
muri-ko - various kind
ruota - each
nokki·u·tta-nen gagi - with (gagi) their own (-nen) name (nokki·u)
o·da·tari - which (o·) are (datari)
rybmy - woman’s dress
u·nokk·ot·i·s - which (·ot) is called (u·nokk·i)
muovvu·tta - dress (nom. muovvu)
ramuskos - legless (nom. ramuskon < rumi ‘leg’)
toboh·ma - her, the woman, she (nom. tobori)
u·nokk·i - is called
koa·rymy·ma - summer dress (nom. ·rybmy)
odna - of her/him
toht·u·a·ta - it (·ta) is (·a) made (toht·u)
puvm·ika - from deer skin (nom. puna)
holot·ta - thin (nom. holot)
tsġovv·u·a - is said
holo·puni·ha - thin-deer-skinned
sahra - that is to say
ġalpot - of thin deer skin, thin, light, lightweight
heįe·rymy·ma - winter dress (nom. ·rybmy)
ỉskid - of woman (nom. ỉski)
damṡ·ika - from skin with fur (nom. damu)
toht·u·a·ta - it (·ta) is (·a) made (toht·u)
eukkỉ - a little
tuval·tu·a - is heavier
okįot·i - is warm enough, is sufficiently warm
non·ia - in it
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Re: Siųa

Post by Khemehekis »

MONOBA wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:That's got to be one of the most elaborate artistic languages ever created! I like the way you micro-manage every aspect, just like a real language.

I think the record-setter for detail is Rolandt Tweehuysen's Spocanian, with 1,500 pages of grammar (with many exceptions) and a 25,000-word lexicon.
Thank you! It apparently runs in the family...

But my "vision" is to write first a book of grammar (morphology, syntax, lots of texts and stories), and then a book of "people", and finally write a story in Siųa.

Every century needs its Tolkien!
Frankly, I find the stories of Siųa more compelling than fantasy. I was never able to get into elves putting spells on dwarves and all that stuff. Plus, I'm partial to people with freckles.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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MONOBA
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Re: Siųa

Post by MONOBA »

Khemehekis wrote:
MONOBA wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:That's got to be one of the most elaborate artistic languages ever created! I like the way you micro-manage every aspect, just like a real language.

I think the record-setter for detail is Rolandt Tweehuysen's Spocanian, with 1,500 pages of grammar (with many exceptions) and a 25,000-word lexicon.
Thank you! It apparently runs in the family...

But my "vision" is to write first a book of grammar (morphology, syntax, lots of texts and stories), and then a book of "people", and finally write a story in Siųa.

Every century needs its Tolkien!
Frankly, I find the stories of Siųa more compelling than fantasy. I was never able to get into elves putting spells on dwarves and all that stuff. Plus, I'm partial to people with freckles.

You must be a gay!

Yeah, I'm not a fan of elves. Once you know Finnish and Old Norse, it kind of loses its charm.

But my idea would be a story with fantasy, but all the fantasy stems from the people's reading into nature. One day it'll be ...clearer.
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Re: Siųa

Post by Khemehekis »

MONOBA wrote: You must be a gay!

Yeah, I'm not a fan of elves. Once you know Finnish and Old Norse, it kind of loses its charm.

But my idea would be a story with fantasy, but all the fantasy stems from the people's reading into nature. One day it'll be ...clearer.
Actually, I'm a bisexual.

And Veris would agree with the two of us about elves. They've been done to the death (or with elves, would that be "done to the immortality"?)
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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