(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

[jseamus]

The conlang that Changshuo is maybe living on isn't one with magic. At least, it doesn't have magic like most fantasy novels do.

Could you expand in this, please?

[Micamo]

Do any of them actually fart rainbows? That would be kinda fucking awesome, though possibly unhealthy.

Also, How many conworlds around here are magic-free? Just wondering, as I am a bit of a fan of more mundane fantasy.

No, that was just a weird example. The Cadohan were turned into amphibians and given various adaptations to make them more useful in the water. The Leizoi were basically made into catpeople. Keep in mind both names are now tentative, I'm considering scrapping all of the human-derivative people's conlangs and remaking them from a single source, possibly Old Agyonnar.

Mine probably will be soon. I wound up basically only using it in one place; It's impossible to justify and unless applied very inconsistently makes societies indescribable and unrecognizable. I guess the second part is useful if you want to do that but an Eldritch Culture is not what I'm going for.

[Thakowsaizmu]

The conlang that Changshuo is maybe living on isn't one with magic. At least, it doesn't have magic like most fantasy novels do.

Could you expand in this, please?

There are people called the Kikŭcō [kik}_cts)o:] who are like builders. The name is subject to change. Anyway, they are the ones that know how to maintain the strange magical items that permeate the island. But they don't know how to make new ones. Strange items like hulking metal things that can move along enchanted tracks from one place to another.

[jseamus]

There are people called the Kikŭcō [kik}_cts)o:] who are like builders. The name is subject to change. Anyway, they are the ones that know how to maintain the strange magical items that permeate the island. But they don't know how to make new ones. Strange items like hulking metal things that can move along enchanted tracks from one place to another.

I think I see what you mean. However, this is not exactly what I was looking for. I was looking for conworlds that are completely naturalistic, i.e. that have in them no classes of phenomena that cannot be found in our world.

If your hulking machines run along tracks by the same means that hulking machines run along tracks IRL, then it qualifies. However, even a little bit of magic would exclude a conworld from the category I am seeking.

This is, of course, no mark against your conworld. Some of my favorite fantasy stories occur in magical worlds, but I am trying to make fantasy stories that do not, and I was wondering if anyone else was pursuing a similar experiment.

[Micamo]

I think I see what you mean. However, this is not exactly what I was looking for. I was looking for conworlds that are completely naturalistic, i.e. that have in them no classes of phenomena that cannot be found in our world.

If your hulking machines run along tracks by the same means that hulking machines run along tracks IRL, then it qualifies. However, even a little bit of magic would exclude a conworld from the category I am seeking.

This is, of course, no mark against your conworld. Some of my favorite fantasy stories occur in magical worlds, but I am trying to make fantasy stories that do not, and I was wondering if anyone else was pursuing a similar experiment.

The Agyon's transformation is pretty magical. Then again, what's the fun in having a conworld exactly the same as our world?

[jseamus]

Then again, what's the fun in having a conworld exactly the same as our world?

There is no requirement that the conworld be exactly the same as our world. If there were then these constructions wouldn't be conworlds, they'd be some kind of journalism or documentary.

I only require that the conworld not contain any class of phenomena that cannot be found IRL; e.g. if there is no magic IRL then there is no magic in the conworld. I am currently working on a conworld (that populated by the "Nejadish" cultures) which is pretty much mundane. No gods, magic, obviously nonhuman races, aliens, "futuristic" technology, or psychic powers appear in this conworld (as far as I have constructed it now).

Even without any of those things, I still find this conworld interesting and challenging to create. I don't have most of the stock fantasy elements, but I am still making a fantasy world (or social science fiction world, perhaps).

I don't expect everyone to make these sorts of conworlds, but I am somewhat surprised at how few people do make them.

[Thakowsaizmu]

I think I see what you mean. However, this is not exactly what I was looking for. I was looking for conworlds that are completely naturalistic, i.e. that have in them no classes of phenomena that cannot be found in our world.

If your hulking machines run along tracks by the same means that hulking machines run along tracks IRL, then it qualifies. However, even a little bit of magic would exclude a conworld from the category I am seeking.

This is, of course, no mark against your conworld. Some of my favorite fantasy stories occur in magical worlds, but I am trying to make fantasy stories that do not, and I was wondering if anyone else was pursuing a similar experiment.

But is not the ability to command these powerful metal behemoths magic? Is it not magic to have pictures appear in special crystal receptacles?

[sangi39]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

On a similar note, it's held by some archaeologists that smiths, at least in some parts of Europe during the earlier years of the Iron Age, were often held as people who wielded somem sort of secret or supernatural power as evident from the orientation of their workshops in relation to the rising and setting sun which was often set differently to most other buildings. I forget the actual average orientation but for houses, the main entrance often faced the south-east. I think, but I'm not sure, smithing workshops more or less faced south-west or north-west (this orientation would allow less light into the building and the flashes of light caused by pounding red-hot metal would appear more intense than if the workshop were orientated in a more south-easterly manner) and the workspace was laid out in reverse to that of normal houses, i.e. normal houses had sleeping area to the right on the way in and working areas on the left while smiths's houses/workshops had sleeping areas on the left and workspaces on the right. I haven't looked at the notes from that lecture in almost a year though so don't quote me on that.

The basic idea is that the ability of the smith to turn a seemingly uninteresting rock into a functional or decorative tool was the result of what might be called a magical knowledge or a channeling of the divine in a similar manner to thoughts regarding alchemy in later periods. Although I think we might have lost this idea, if it ever existed, we might get a similar impression of people like physicists who can look at a bunch of numbers and seemingly minor events and, from there, work out these vastly amazing facts about the universe, or artists who can take a collection of pretty basic colours and paint entire murals to the tiniest detail. Granted we don't see it as magic anymore (whenever or if ever we did) but it's still pretty impressive :) Anyway, I think my main point, I lost it somewhere after the first paragraph, is that although something may be pretty mundane and ordinary, the perspective of that something may be entirely different, in this case, "magic".

That's just perspectives and labels though, e.g. we call it "science", some conculture might call it "alchemy", another "witchcraft" and another "magic", etc. :)

[Micamo]

But is not the ability to command these powerful metal behemoths magic? Is it not magic to have pictures appear in special crystal receptacles?

Nope. It's called computers. It may well look like magic to someone who doesn't understand it.

Then again, once you can formalize, explain the behavior of, and systematically use a phenomenon, it ceases being magic and starts being science.

EDIT: Or, what Sangi said. I was too slow.

[sangi39]

But is not the ability to command these powerful metal behemoths magic? Is it not magic to have pictures appear in special crystal receptacles?

Nope. It's called computers. It may well look like magic to someone who doesn't understand it.

Then again, once you can formalize, explain the behavior of, and systematically use a phenomenon, it ceases being magic and starts being science.

"Magic is just the stuff science hasn't made boring yet" so says one of my wife's t-shirts :D

[jseamus]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
<snip>
Anyway, I think my main point, I lost it somewhere after the first paragraph, is that although something may be pretty mundane and ordinary, the perspective of that something may be entirely different, in this case, "magic".

That's just perspectives and labels though, e.g. we call it "science", some conculture might call it "alchemy", another "witchcraft" and another "magic", etc. :)

I get what you're saying, and I agree to an extent, but there is a fundamental difference between saying "computers are amazing, kinda like magic" and "there exist demons, goblins, angels, aliens, and psychics."

Ofcourse, many of the Nejadish people (from the conworld I am working on) are amazed by things they don't understand and attribute them to supernatural or otherwise ontologically dubious sources, but that doesn't mean they're right. There are no gods or demons or spirits of the dead explicitly present in my conworld, despite what the people living there may think. I find it strange that there are not more conworlds like this.

[Micamo]

Well, goblins and aliens are just the existence of non-earth species. Again, you could only use earth-occurring species if you really wanted to but then you rob yourself of the possible fun of inventing new species.

[Tanni]

Then again, once you can formalize, explain the behavior of, and systematically use a phenomenon, it ceases being magic and starts being science.

So you can start out with magic and get science. The science of magic. Whow! That's what they do in Hogwards, I think.

Well, goblins and aliens are just the existence of non-earth species. Again, you could only use earth-occurring species if you really wanted to but then you rob yourself of the possible fun of inventing new species.

It's more likely that they are ancient (pre-human) non-human earth species.

[Tanni]

Then again, what's the fun in having a conworld exactly the same as our world?

There is no requirement that the conworld be exactly the same as our world. If there were then these constructions wouldn't be conworlds, they'd be some kind of journalism or documentary.

I only require that the conworld not contain any class of phenomena that cannot be found IRL; e.g. if there is no magic IRL then there is no magic in the conworld. I am currently working on a conworld (that populated by the "Nejadish" cultures) which is pretty much mundane. No gods, magic, obviously nonhuman races, aliens, "futuristic" technology, or psychic powers appear in this conworld (as far as I have constructed it now).

Even without any of those things, I still find this conworld interesting and challenging to create. I don't have most of the stock fantasy elements, but I am still making a fantasy world (or social science fiction world, perhaps).

I don't expect everyone to make these sorts of conworlds, but I am somewhat surprised at how few people do make them.

In my story, I intent to have no gods, no magic, no mental powers, and up to now no really advanced technology (but it is planned that e.g. some kind of spacecraft, transmitter or similar will appear). And if there will be some kind of phenomenon resembling magic, it there will be some kind of rational explanation to this. (It may be quite interesting to figure out an rational explanation to a phenomenon appearing magical at first glance.) But there are some unusual species.

Ofcourse, many of the Nejadish people (from the conworld I am working on) are amazed by things they don't understand and attribute them to supernatural or otherwise ontologically dubious sources, but that doesn't mean they're right. There are no gods or demons or spirits of the dead explicitly present in my conworld, despite what the people living there may think. I find it strange that there are not more conworlds like this.

There is the Rainbow Demon, of course, but upto now, he is just a fairy tale or legendary character, also appearing in dreams. (If you read a fairy tale, you could also dream about it, right?) Your conpeople or your protagonists can talk about that dreams, making others think or dream about that demon, too. So, you can have both, a conworld like jseamus proposed and magic, if magic is restricted to just occure in dreams. But as in any legend or fairy tail, there is a small grain of truth in it. So it's quite possible that my protagonists will meet the Rainbow Demon personally someday.

[jseamus]

In my story, I intent to have no gods, no magic, no mental powers, and up to now no really advanced technology (but it is planned that e.g. some kind of spacecraft, transmitter or similar will appear). And if there will be some kind of phenomenon resembling magic, it there will be some kind of rational explanation to this. (It may be quite interesting to figure out an rational explanation to a phenomenon appearing magical at first glance.) But there are some unusual species.

This is what I was talking about, and sounds a lot like what I am currently trying to do. Unusual species are okay, IMO, so long as they do not tread on credulity too much.

There is the Rainbow Demon, of course, but upto now, he is just a fairy tale or legendary character, also appearing in dreams. (If you read a fairy tale, you could also dream about it, right?) Your conpeople or your protagonists can talk about that dreams, making others think or dream about that demon, too. So, you can have both, a conworld like jseamus proposed and magic, if magic is restricted to just occure in dreams. But as in any legend or fairy tail, there is a small grain of truth in it. So it's quite possible that my protagonists will meet the Rainbow Demon personally someday.

This is an interesting way of looking at magic. Not exactly what I do, but I'd be willing to try it out.

[Tanni]

This is what I was talking about, and sounds a lot like what I am currently trying to do. Unusual species are okay, IMO, so long as they do not tread on credulity too much.

Actually, my species aren't that unusual. There are spiders -- a ''little'' bigger than usual, I admit -- and bat-like creatures, besides others. Think of it as if these species had a development comparable -- but not similar -- to the human development. I know that there is a limit for the size of spider-like creatures using the usual building materials for their skins, but there could have been some biochemic innovation so that somewhat bigger sizes would be possible. I've also decided that ecdysis will be somewhat different if they pass the normal spider's size.

This is an interesting way of looking at magic. Not exactly what I do, but I'd be willing to try it out.

I've not much done on that upto now, just two dreams of my protagonist where the Rainbow Demon appears, but doesn't really do what you usually would call magic, unless you'd call a ride on a horse through the skies as ''magic''. It's just a proposal for a way you can stay ''realistic'' without entirely dropping magic.

See http://www.bridgetothestars.net on the opinion of Philip Pullman on writing fantasy in concern to His Dark Materials.

Yesterday, I was in an extrauniversitarian lecture about how to live elsewhere in the universe. They said that the film Pandora is not really that extraordinary if it comes to lifeforms. They also showed a film made by the (scientific) Blue Moon Project where thing get a little more unusual, without stretching the physical limits. The cloud whale idea was also used in a scientific novel series I'm used to read.

[dwnielsen]

Problem..
Compose the concept government from the following:
human senses along with concepts think and feel
simple actions such as vibrate, mash, cut, speak, touch
very concrete nouns such as rock, water, grass

[jseamus]

Problem..
Compose the concept government from the following:
human senses along with concepts think and feel
simple actions such as vibrate, mash, cut, speak, touch
very concrete nouns such as rock, water, grass

Humans feel and see together as one. They move as a bridge of ants. They move as a pack of wolves, the alpha leading, punishing, and (for lack of a less connotative word) exploiting.

Still too abstract and metaphorical, though. :/

[jseamus]

Can anyone direct me to some good resources on human migrations from about 5 millennium BC and their effect on language? In particular, I would love to see something on the Bantu expansion.

[reizoukin]

Can anyone direct me to some good resources on human migrations from about 5 millennium BC and their effect on language? In particular, I would love to see something on the Bantu expansion.

Some Wikipedia stuff you've probably already seen:
Wikipedia Article - Early Human Migration
Wikipedia Article - Historical Migration
Wikipedia Article - Bantu Expansion

History of Botswana
Some History of Southern Africa (You'll have to click the translate button at the top)
Preview of "New Linguistic Evidence and 'the Bantu Expansion'", costs money for the full article.

A fancy NatGeo thingamajig
Another fancy NatGeo thingamajig

Major genomic mitochondrial lineages delineate early human expansions
The Journey of Mankind
A single and early migration for the peopling of the Americas supported by mitochondrial DNA sequencedata

Hope those help. :D