Recent Changes in English

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Kesshin
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Recent Changes in English

Post by Kesshin »

:eng: Today I saw an official government sign pluralize the word "semi"(as in "semi truck") as "semi's" in a sign saying "No Semi's".
My personal grammar radar says this is incorrect, but it has become a trend recently as more and more people pluralize things with a "apostrophe s". I originally thought it was just due to the horrible American school system, but this is a street sign, hopefully written by adults. This might be deeper than I thought.

Another trend I'm seeing is that more and more people are making a kind of glottal stop noise before things like "I"(and it's homophones) or "an". Is this just a slight stutter? People also seem to replace /t/ sounds with [ʔ].

What are yall's thoughts? Are there any other trends you're noticing?
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Khemehekis »

I'm seeing/hearing more people used "shined" where "shone" would be prescriptively correct. I mean, "The bootblack shined my shoes" has always been sanctioned, but now there are songs that say things like, "The sun shined in the sky", and people on the Internet writing, "My late grandfather shined in foreign languages". When I first started coming across this, I viewed this the way I'd view, "I lied down on my towel" or "Julie hanged her coat up on the rack", but now I'm wondering if "shone" is on its way out.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Visions1 »

People replacing is with are.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Kesshin »

Visions1 wrote: 09 Jul 2024 02:09 People replacing is with are.
Wait really? Can you give a few examples? I haven't heard of this before.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Visions1 »

You know, I might have mixed it up. Maybe it's replacing are with is.
I need to call my friends and ask them.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Yard »

Yeah, I've noticed those apostrophe "s" pluralizations popping up more often lately, and it always bugs me too. It's like grammar rules are going out the window. As for the glottal stop thing, I think it might be more of a speech pattern thing than a stutter.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Salmoneus »

Kesshin wrote: 08 Jul 2024 23:19 :eng: Today I saw an official government sign pluralize the word "semi"(as in "semi truck") as "semi's" in a sign saying "No Semi's".
My personal grammar radar says this is incorrect, but it has become a trend recently as more and more people pluralize things with a "apostrophe s". I originally thought it was just due to the horrible American school system, but this is a street sign, hopefully written by adults. This might be deeper than I thought.
The apostrophe was originally used to indicate the elision of letters that were no longer pronounced (or never had been). Cates (genitive), walked and shall not were respelled cat's, walk'd and sha'n't.

At the same time, spelling rules for plurals became confusing when applied to foreign words ending in vowels. Writing "potatos" made it look as though the final "o" was meant to be short. But writing "potatoes" made it round as though there were an 'e' sound in it, which there wasn't (and also made it look like the singular should be 'potatoe'). So the solution everyone decided one was a rule that words ending in vowels were spelled with apostrophes in the plural: potato's, tomato's, hello's, apostrophe's, etc, to indicated that a vowel letter was logically present (making the final vowel long) but not actually pronounced.

This then spread into a rule that plurals should have apostrophes whenever the word seemed odd or would look strange with an -s stuck on it.

At some point in the 19th century, pedants fixated on the idea that one of the things apostrophes were used for was genitives, and decided that they should ONLY be used for genitives. So since then apostrophes anywhere other than in genitives have gradually been removed: not only do we now write "potatoes" rather than "potato's", we now write "Ps and Qs" instead of "p's and q's", "1970s" instead of "1970's", "bosun" instead of "bo's'n" and so on.

Meanwhile, the general population didn't get the message, and instead expanded use of the apostrophe to ALL plurals. This became known in the 20th century as the "grocer's apostrophe", because of the way that shopkeepers would advertise "apple's" and "carrot's" on sale. This was the norm for the working and lower middle class, at least in Britain, until probably WWII.

Only in the last few generations has the rule that apostrophes should be used in, and only in, genitives really become the norm, and it's still frequently violated. Indeed, hypercorrection appears to be driving out the apostrophe entirely now - many governments don't allow it on signs, some companies don't allow it, etc. Eventually it'll be extinct entirely.

But your person who wrote "semi's" is just using the apostrophe in the same way it has continually been used since at least the 18th century: marking the plural of a foreign word (in this case probably because "semies" both makes the first vowel look long and makes the word as a whole look like the plural of "semy").

It's not a "recent change" at all. Indeed, a century ago most people outside of universities and major newspapers and publishing companies wouldn't have blinked at it.
Another trend I'm seeing is that more and more people are making a kind of glottal stop noise before things like "I"(and it's homophones) or "an". Is this just a slight stutter?
Any time two vowels follow in sequence without turning into a diphthong, there'll be some sort of glottal stop between them - people don't actually just stop breathing for a moment. These stops are also inevitable utterance-initially (when they're really releases more than stops). Strengthening of the stop may be dialectical, or emphatic. I very much doubt it's "recent", since the stops are generally even stronger in other Germanic languages.

Personally, I don't tend to use many glottal stops in hiatus, because all the low vowels are instead given linking R, because of the comma-letter merger.
People also seem to replace /t/ sounds with [ʔ].
Yes, literally every native speaker from the UK or US does this, to different extents. For the last 30 years or so, even the royal family and prime ministers have done this even in official broadcasts.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

People tend to innovate strong verbs for anything ending in /t/ or /d/. I fully support this. Skid ~ skud is the latest I've heard. Brilliant, a vast improvement in the language.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Kesshin »

Salmoneus wrote: 12 Jul 2024 01:23
Spoiler:
Kesshin wrote: 08 Jul 2024 23:19 :eng: Today I saw an official government sign pluralize the word "semi"(as in "semi truck") as "semi's" in a sign saying "No Semi's".
My personal grammar radar says this is incorrect, but it has become a trend recently as more and more people pluralize things with a "apostrophe s". I originally thought it was just due to the horrible American school system, but this is a street sign, hopefully written by adults. This might be deeper than I thought.
The apostrophe was originally used to indicate the elision of letters that were no longer pronounced (or never had been). Cates (genitive), walked and shall not were respelled cat's, walk'd and sha'n't.

At the same time, spelling rules for plurals became confusing when applied to foreign words ending in vowels. Writing "potatos" made it look as though the final "o" was meant to be short. But writing "potatoes" made it round as though there were an 'e' sound in it, which there wasn't (and also made it look like the singular should be 'potatoe'). So the solution everyone decided one was a rule that words ending in vowels were spelled with apostrophes in the plural: potato's, tomato's, hello's, apostrophe's, etc, to indicated that a vowel letter was logically present (making the final vowel long) but not actually pronounced.

This then spread into a rule that plurals should have apostrophes whenever the word seemed odd or would look strange with an -s stuck on it.

At some point in the 19th century, pedants fixated on the idea that one of the things apostrophes were used for was genitives, and decided that they should ONLY be used for genitives. So since then apostrophes anywhere other than in genitives have gradually been removed: not only do we now write "potatoes" rather than "potato's", we now write "Ps and Qs" instead of "p's and q's", "1970s" instead of "1970's", "bosun" instead of "bo's'n" and so on.

Meanwhile, the general population didn't get the message, and instead expanded use of the apostrophe to ALL plurals. This became known in the 20th century as the "grocer's apostrophe", because of the way that shopkeepers would advertise "apple's" and "carrot's" on sale. This was the norm for the working and lower middle class, at least in Britain, until probably WWII.

Only in the last few generations has the rule that apostrophes should be used in, and only in, genitives really become the norm, and it's still frequently violated. Indeed, hypercorrection appears to be driving out the apostrophe entirely now - many governments don't allow it on signs, some companies don't allow it, etc. Eventually it'll be extinct entirely.

But your person who wrote "semi's" is just using the apostrophe in the same way it has continually been used since at least the 18th century: marking the plural of a foreign word (in this case probably because "semies" both makes the first vowel look long and makes the word as a whole look like the plural of "semy").

It's not a "recent change" at all. Indeed, a century ago most people outside of universities and major newspapers and publishing companies wouldn't have blinked at it.
Another trend I'm seeing is that more and more people are making a kind of glottal stop noise before things like "I"(and it's homophones) or "an". Is this just a slight stutter?
Any time two vowels follow in sequence without turning into a diphthong, there'll be some sort of glottal stop between them - people don't actually just stop breathing for a moment. These stops are also inevitable utterance-initially (when they're really releases more than stops). Strengthening of the stop may be dialectical, or emphatic. I very much doubt it's "recent", since the stops are generally even stronger in other Germanic languages.

Personally, I don't tend to use many glottal stops in hiatus, because all the low vowels are instead given linking R, because of the comma-letter merger.
People also seem to replace /t/ sounds with [ʔ].
Yes, literally every native speaker from the UK or US does this, to different extents. For the last 30 years or so, even the royal family and prime ministers have done this even in official broadcasts.


Thanks for the explanation! I'm a little embarrassed about being so fundamentally wrong, but now I know more about English, so it's a fair trade-off.

Though with the /t/ to [ʔ], I've also heard it replace other stop consonants like /k/ and, less surprisingly, /d/. I think it's interesting that a native speaker might not even notice this.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Salmoneus »

It should be said that glottalisation does vary between dialects and is much less advanced in the US, particularly because the US already flaps most intervocalic /t/, which would otherwise tend to be glottalised in some (though not all) UK speech. However even in the US people usually glottalise it in codas.

Glottalisation of other stops is rarer, but there is a tendency to "reinforce" coda stops by making them ejective or by giving them an accompanying glottal stop, and sometimes this progressed to replacing the stop with a glottal entirely.


-------

Regarding being wrong about English, this is a very common fallacy: assuming that the "standard" language you were taught as a child was actually the general (or even universal) form of the language spoken in practice at that time, and that current dialectical variations must have deviated from that standard between your childhood and now.

In reality, almost all linguistic features are much older than people tend to think they are, and sometimes the non-standard form is actually older than the standard form.
[for the sentence I ain't goin' nowhere 'orrible! could probably have been uttered by a refined lady of the early 18th century. The contraction "ain't" was coming into use at that time, and double negatives were just going out of fashion. The participle in -n rather than -ng, the absence of initial 'h' in some words, and the contraction "ain't" (when used in the 1st person) went out of fashion in the middle classes in the late 19th or early 20th centuries due to their adoption by the working classes, but continued in use among the upper classes (the so called "huntin', shootin', fishin'" class) well into the middle of the century.]
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by qwed117 »

VaptuantaDoi wrote: 12 Jul 2024 13:52 People tend to innovate strong verbs for anything ending in /t/ or /d/. I fully support this. Skid ~ skud is the latest I've heard. Brilliant, a vast improvement in the language.
I very much enjoy the spread of strong verbs, I’m innovating away. Past tense of shave? shouve (rhymes with cove). Inshallah English will become a tricon.
Salmoneus wrote: 13 Jul 2024 14:45
Regarding being wrong about English, this is a very common fallacy: assuming that the "standard" language you were taught as a child was actually the general (or even universal) form of the language spoken in practice at that time, and that current dialectical variations must have deviated from that standard between your childhood and now.

In reality, almost all linguistic features are much older than people tend to think they are, and sometimes the non-standard form is actually older than the standard form.
Would also point out that a lot of places where AAVE differs from White Southern Vernacular English are retentions of speech patterns from Older Southern American English, for example palatization of /g/ prior to /Q/, as commonly seen in the “meme word” “gyatt”, a shortening of “gyat damn”
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Kesshin »

qwed117 wrote: 13 Jul 2024 21:38 Past tense of shave? shouve (rhymes with cove)
I've heard some people keep the "-ed" as well as this, but only ever in jest.

"Did you shave?"
"Yeah, I shouved."
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Visions1 »

I'd write it as shove. But eh.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Khemehekis »

Personally, I like "brothe" (rhymes with "loathe") for "breathed" and "snoze" for "sneezed".
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

^I like those too. Also hoping to make "bikken" the past participle of "bike", and "beeth" the plural of "booth". [;)]

One thing I have noticed is /t/ added between /l/ and /s/ in words like "else", "false", etc. This is nothing new or uncommon, but it's at the point where it's nearly 100% among people I know. I rarely hear /ɛls/, only /ɛlts/.

Re. glottalization, I've commented before that when I pronounce a word like "button", there is glottalization, but there's also my tongue in the alveolar position (one of you called it an "unreleased t"). With most speakers around me, though, it's a glottal stop with no alveolar element whatsoever, and the schwa is pronounced more like /ɪ/. My pronunciation, more like: /ˈbʌt.n̩/ What I hear others say: /ˈbʌʔ.ɪn/

I've also observed something I call "superfluous /n/" where /t/ is involved. This one might need some more study and maybe it's just a coincidence, but I can think of a couple creators I follow who say it. A word like "pundit" winds up as /pʌn.dɪnt/, "competitive" is /kəmˈpɛtn̩tɪv/.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Visions1 »

I mentioned this above, but the s->ts thing appears elsewhere (i.e. the dancing pants), and I think it's because it's fortis.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Khemehekis »

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 22 Aug 2024 02:33 I've also observed something I call "superfluous /n/" where /t/ is involved. This one might need some more study and maybe it's just a coincidence, but I can think of a couple creators I follow who say it. A word like "pundit" winds up as /pʌn.dɪnt/, "competitive" is /kəmˈpɛtn̩tɪv/.
"Tenant" for "tenet" and "uninted" for "united" follow this pattern too.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by HolyHandGrenade! »

As a teenager, I have heard and used bro increasingly outside of the vocative, without articles, such as the sentence: “bro just went crazy”
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by Arayaz »

HolyHandGrenade! wrote: 04 Oct 2024 16:32 As a teenager, I have heard and used bro increasingly outside of the vocative, without articles, such as the sentence: “bro just went crazy”
I've increasingly heard this as well. At first mostly among "popular" people, chiefly men, but I'm now hearing it from nerdier types.

I wonder how common of a progression that is: the well-connected, popular people adopt a change, and as they outgrow it, nerdy or behind-the-times people start to pick it up.
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Re: Recent Changes in English

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

HolyHandGrenade! wrote: 04 Oct 2024 16:32 As a teenager, I have heard and used bro increasingly outside of the vocative, without articles, such as the sentence: “bro just went crazy”
Hah. I'm 23 (well, I'll be 24 in three days), and it's wild that I'm already feeling too old for some of this stuff. (I do be saying "bruh" a lot, though).

Reminds me of a video I saw in which an anime YouTuber recaps the plot of the anime Spice and Wolf in "Gen Z-ese" (really a combination of GenZ and Gen Alpha slang), and he does use "bro" and "bae" in the manner you describe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrK7A5TIGu8 (passage in question from 4:05-5:20).
Arayaz wrote: 04 Oct 2024 20:15 I've increasingly heard this as well. At first mostly among "popular" people, chiefly men, but I'm now hearing it from nerdier types.

I wonder how common of a progression that is: the well-connected, popular people adopt a change, and as they outgrow it, nerdy or behind-the-times people start to pick it up.
Probably akin to the older generation picking up the slang of the youth, thereby rendering it uncool and no longer fit for use by the younger generation who coined it.
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